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Topic: New Fuel Cell System Idea  (Read 29427 times)

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Offline constant thinker

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2005, 09:33:47 PM »
Electric motors produce a lot of torque though usually. Torque is good in the low end and helps with acceleration when you first start, but the horsepower is what'll bring you up to those high speeds.
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Offline buckminsterfullerene

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2005, 09:37:16 PM »
After thinking about the different issues of my system, I have thought of using the water vapour that is the exhaust form the fuel cell to run the turbine, then use the heat in a Stirling engine.

it really depends on the type of fuel cell that you are thinking of using, because in order to turn a turbine from steam you need to accumulate large amounts of pressure and will require large amounts of heat, some of the systems that i explained may be able to do this, but they are generally very large and expensive and bulky.


Although the fuel cell may beat the combustion engine in terms of efficiency, it does not generate enough horsepower. Can a fuel cell car go accelerate from 0-100km/h in less than 10s?

it is possible if we research more.  currently there is a 5 kilogram system used in a bike and its capable of accelerating to 50 mph (which is about 80.5 km/h), and has an amazing range of 100 miles on 5 oz. of H2, i want to get that fuel cell for a project that i am doing but have been unable to find it, it has also made it into the top 100 inventions of the yeat in time magazine.
the fuel cell is actually a fuel cell stack, but think of the stack in nano terms, they place perhaps hundreds of diminute fuel cells in a certain arrangement that will increase the voltage or the amperage, thus increasing the power, and with this said the power of the 5 kilogram fuel cell is an astonishing 3500 watts, i have heard about a 5000 watts system from from NOVars but have not been able to find it, and the 3500 watt you find it in pictures atleast but no information as to were it can be found.  

if you could make the system even smaller it would still deliver the same power output, its all about the number of series and parallel connections that you make that will control the amperage and the voltage of the system.. though i would suspect that there would be some problems when it comes to delivering high amounts of energy on wires that are significantly small and would carry such high currents of energy.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2005, 09:42:18 PM by 3.3.141592653 »
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline P-man

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2005, 05:01:42 PM »
More research in turbines could help, but I'll leave that up to someone else.

Anyways I've designed two slightly different systems and I'll get some pictures of the drawings that I did when I can.

Quote
Quote
Quote from: geodome on December 18, 2005, 06:43:27 PM
Although the fuel cell may beat the combustion engine in terms of efficiency, it does not generate enough horsepower. Can a fuel cell car go accelerate from 0-100km/h in less than 10s?

it is possible if we research more.

Absolutely. Think outside the box. "Imagination is more important than knowledge"-Albert Einstein
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 05:02:45 PM by P-man »
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Offline buckminsterfullerene

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2005, 05:13:40 PM »
this got me thinking, i did see an article about a car that just beat the speed record, i even did research on it a long tim ago, and its called the BMW H2R, looks ugly but nonetheless its a very powerful machine working only on hydrogen.  its the fifth edition from BMW of a hydrogen powered vehicle, and an interesting challenge that they have of making a more power and better approach towards the interest of creating a more efficient vehicle and someday may prove to be commercialization safe.  it has 232 horsepower and reaches from 0 to 100 kph in only 6 seconds, 3440 pounds (1560kg) with full tank and a driver, and works on liquid hydrogen.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/bmw-h2r.htm

i warn you the exterior of the car may be anything but marketable but that can always be changed ::)  ;D
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 05:23:47 PM by 3.3.141592653 »
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline P-man

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2005, 05:16:39 PM »
Yeah I know that car, and it's proof that hydrogen cars can be powerful.
Pierre.

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Offline buckminsterfullerene

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2005, 05:23:30 PM »
there are also several car manufacturers that are joining the research on hydrogen powered vehicles as an alternative, and even in several parts of the world the commercialization of hydrogen powered cars is starting to go.  for example in the US, on California (why is it always there and not where i live) they have fueling stations for hydrogen cars, in Europe (under new regulations that surely place their cars to stricter measures as to the wastes that they produce) they have bio-diesel, (for some appliactions on cars), ethanol, LPG (liquified petroleum gas), electricity, and i would suspect that if we have hydrogen powered alrleady they should too, though i did not find that but then again i wrote a report for my school about 2 years ago.
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline Borek

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2005, 05:29:10 PM »
Think outside the box. "Imagination is more important than knowledge"-Albert Einstein

Are you sure you read Einstein correctly? He never stated "knowledge is not important".

Pure imagination helps in writing bad sf books, but to make something usefull you need solid knowledge base. Physics - work/energy/power comes probably first if you want to design a car. Are you able to calculate how much hydrogen your car will need to drive 100 miles? Or is your plan
Quote
I'll leave that up to someone else.

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you better use it to learn, not to dream :)
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Offline Borek

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2005, 11:22:55 AM »
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Offline Dude

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2005, 04:10:32 PM »
How about working on processes to generate hydrogen via low energy input?  

After years of reading articles and a limited amount of home-experimentation, I've reached several conclusions about fuel cells and their capability of powering automobiles, for example.  First, one must define the problem.  In my opinion, the primary issue is CO2 emission (which the US seems quite disinterested in) reduction and the secondary issue is the finite resource issue.  My conclusions are:

1.  Using an energy balance, there is little or no benefit in the use of a fuel cell.  The only benefit is an artificial benefit in that the end user (ie the person heating their home or the driver of a car) does not emit CO2.  However, the provider (energy company) emits an equivalent amount or even more CO2 in generating the hydrogen.  The only country positioned for a potential fuel cell market is France (80 % of their energy comes from nuclear plants).
2.  The "efficiency" of a fuel cell is actually about equivalent to that of a diesel internal combustion engine (~35 %).  Many authors will bluff you by neglecting losses in the fuel cell.  Read the books "Fuel Cell Systems Explained" and "Fuel Cell Technology Handbook".

You might as well start experimenting with anti-matter, because the energy balance indicates fuel cells won't replace gasoline engines.  If they do, it will be due to marketing, not physics.  As for the bicycles powered by H2, again physics comes into play.  Each year there is a  race in the Nevada desert.  It was described in a recent journal of Scientific American.  Pedal-powered bicycles can reach 80 mph.  The key is the knowledge that above 20 mph, > 80 % of the energy input goes into overcoming air drag.

Offline P-man

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2005, 04:56:21 PM »
Are you sure you read Einstein correctly? He never stated "knowledge is not important".

Or is your plan I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you better use it to learn, not to dream :)
I read Einstein correctly and I am not dreaming.

I never said that knowledge is bad, I think knowledge is good, but I agree with Einstein. I always do and always will.

I am not dreaming. I am designing fuel cell systems and trying to prove them wrong. When I do, then I work on it more, and try to prove it wrong again. The best way to prove something right is to try and prove something wrong. Thanks for raising another issue to test my systems on. Thank you.
Pierre.

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Offline buckminsterfullerene

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2005, 05:07:27 PM »
How about working on processes to generate hydrogen via low energy input?  

After years of reading articles and a limited amount of home-experimentation, I've reached several conclusions about fuel cells and their capability of powering automobiles, for example.  First, one must define the problem.  In my opinion, the primary issue is CO2 emission (which the US seems quite disinterested in) reduction and the secondary issue is the finite resource issue.  My conclusions are:

1.  Using an energy balance, there is little or no benefit in the use of a fuel cell.  The only benefit is an artificial benefit in that the end user (ie the person heating their home or the driver of a car) does not emit CO2.  However, the provider (energy company) emits an equivalent amount or even more CO2 in generating the hydrogen.  The only country positioned for a potential fuel cell market is France (80 % of their energy comes from nuclear plants).
2.  The "efficiency" of a fuel cell is actually about equivalent to that of a diesel internal combustion engine (~35 %).  Many authors will bluff you by neglecting losses in the fuel cell.  Read the books "Fuel Cell Systems Explained" and "Fuel Cell Technology Handbook".

You might as well start experimenting with anti-matter, because the energy balance indicates fuel cells won't replace gasoline engines.  If they do, it will be due to marketing, not physics.  As for the bicycles powered by H2, again physics comes into play.  Each year there is a  race in the Nevada desert.  It was described in a recent journal of Scientific American.  Pedal-powered bicycles can reach 80 mph.  The key is the knowledge that above 20 mph, > 80 % of the energy input goes into overcoming air drag.

interesting but have you considered electrolisys by using solar panels, the energy provided by the solar panel would not contribute to the emission of CO2 with the exception of course then the solar panel is produced, but it has in most cases a warranty of 25 years (almost as old as the technology has been in existence), as is every energy process when you think about it, nuclear power, well until researchers perfect a way to get rid of the nuclear waste, the nuclear waste will just continue on accumulating, most nuclear power plnats are running out of space, they are even going through risky methods to maintain the waste, in giant 20 feet by 8 feet cilinders that are placed outside (vulnerable to a missile [as reported in a newspaper in my area recently]), weighting several tons, and a very thick layer of several feet of cement and steel, and that is because the projected construction of a storage facility that was supposed to be made by 2003 or 2005 is running extremely late and there is even an uncertainty that it will ever be finished (it was supposed to store all the nuclear waste from all the plants in the US, most every plant will either have to minimize energy production on the energy hungry society, or stop function all together).  other sources would all produce CO2 in the process of generating electricity.... well except wind power and hydroelectric power plants but there are some other issues along there too, such as space and environmental obstructions, thought i admit after seeing some wind generators i was impressed at the amount of electricity that a single system is capable of producing, but the cost was also high.  fuel cells are amongst the most efficient systems around, not 30% (the fact that platinum is used as a catalyst increases the speed that hydrogen is produced from water, and never gets used up) but actually there are several different kinds of fuel cells, some with higher efficiency and some, well they will produce CO2 but will yield more energy then almost any other CO2 emitting process.  the point is that there is not system that is perfect but there are some systems that will prove to be more beneficial than other systems in the long run, some systems which will have a high price tag now but they will end up producing more energy and contributing minimal if no emission into the atmosphere, rememmber that the point is not in reducing the CO2 emission only.

there is actually some confusion about that matter, the fact is that CO2 is actually required to maintaing life, the greenhouse effect is required to maintain life, but the elements that cause health hazards and global warming to extraorinary levels is really at what programs like the Kyoto Protocol is really aiming at.  a combustion engine will produce carbon monoxide, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide as well as sulfur, we are primarily worried about the effect of nitrous oxide on the global warming issue, carbon monoxide and sulfur in the health issue, and sulfur in the fact that it contributes to creating acid rain and destroys several forests and causes fish kill in lakes.  CO2 is generally goes through the process called the carbon cycle where the earth will consume the carbon dioxide, as will the plants as a process of generating energy, carbon dioxide contributes to the greenhouse gases but our worry is about too much greenhouse gases not about the greenhouse effect itself, because it actually helps us stay alive by regulating global temperatures between night and day, it traps heat so that we will not face a scenario that is seen in other planets, on one side is several hundreds of degrees celsius but on the other is below freezing temperatures.
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline buckminsterfullerene

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2005, 05:26:03 PM »
Absolutely. Think outside the box. "Imagination is more important than knowledge"-Albert Einstein
i agree with the quote, and taking into consideration that einstain found the famous E=mc2 or actually just got the idea by imagining the light energy as a form of waves that would be moving at the speed of light, he imagined that the waver, no matter if you were actually going at the speed of light and if you were to theorically be able to see the light particle, you could never capture that light particle but you would expierience the light particle slowly moving away from your grasp.  imagination and the fact that he was capable of combining several allready existing equations and combine them into E=mc2 was actually quite significant, he was capable of explaining light as actually containing mass and energy going as the speed of light squared.

when you think about it, with out imagination we would not have a lot of knowledge, because no one will dare to imagine a different view to the same situation and challenged theories that have been considered true by the science community.

what i said above about einstein i actually saw in a very interesting movie that was shown in class by my chemistry teacher, i believed it was titled "E=mc2: the world's most famous equation" and explains the process from each individual step in the equation; E is for energy, m is for mass, c is for the speed of light, and 2 is for squared (those are the subsections in the movie) at the end it combines them, its a pretty interesting movie.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 05:28:31 PM by 3.3.141592653 »
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline buckminsterfullerene

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2005, 05:48:23 PM »
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryInformation/IndustryInformationExternal/NewsDisplayArticle/0,1602,5683,00.html

here sit eh bike, hmm, it can run for 4 hours apparently at a speed of 50 mph, minimum range is 100 miles, but if the above is true then it has a max range of 200 miles, but apparently the system it uses is a 1 kw fuel cell stack, should be more powerful with:
http://www.hawkassociates.com/mhtx/3kfc.htm

the 3 kw fuel cell at about the same size, the 1 kw system is the size of a shoe box....
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 05:49:15 PM by 3.3.141592653 »
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline Borek

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2005, 06:09:27 PM »
i agree with the quote

You are not alone.

Quote
the fact that he was capable of combining several allready existing equations and combine them into E=mc2

Imagination was needed later. He learnt these equations first and he was very skilled mathematician - I can assure you he spent a considerable time to polish his math.

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Offline Borek

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Re:New Fuel Cell System Idea
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2005, 06:11:18 PM »
I am designing fuel cell systems

What equation describes dependence between electromotive force of hydrogen fuel cell and hydrogen pressure? Fuel cell generates DC, what will be better in your car - use DC motor, or convert DC to AC loosing some energy and then use AC motor? What parameter of the cell decides what is a difference between EMF and useable voltage? Hydrogen in a fuel cell is a donor or acceptor of electrons? You have 22.4 L of hydrogen at STP, how long a single fuel cell will be able to give 1A current assuming 100% efficiency?

Don't get me wrong, but if you don' know answers to these questions, you are not designing your fuel cells. You are dreaming :)
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