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Offline sankalpmittal

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Question regarding nitric acid...
« on: October 06, 2012, 12:11:00 PM »
My one teacher said that ionic salts or compounds , when in solid state does not conduct electricity. Solid nitric acid even does not conduct electricity.

But another teacher said that there is an exception with "solid nitric acid" , i.e it conducts electricity !! It occurs in a bond type : H2NO3.NO3-.

Now which one is correct ?

Please help !!

Thanks in advance....  :)

Offline Hunter2

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2012, 05:51:22 AM »
I dont think it conducts electricity. NaCl has also Na+ and Cl- and will not conduct the current in solid state.

Offline sankalpmittal

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 08:50:22 AM »
I dont think it conducts electricity. NaCl has also Na+ and Cl- and will not conduct the current in solid state.

I'm not at all satisfied by your answer. Please explain a bit comprehensively. Why does HNO3 not form H2NO3+NO3- when it is in solid state , as my second teacher said ?

Offline Hunter2

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2012, 09:26:38 AM »
I didnt said it will not form  H2NO3+NO3-. Why should this conduct electricity. NaCl is the same.

Offline sankalpmittal

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2012, 01:17:13 PM »
I didnt said it will not form  H2NO3+NO3-. Why should this conduct electricity. NaCl is the same.

What do you mean by - "NaCl is the same". I know why NaCl does not conduct electricity in solid state , because it does not form ions in solid state. But HNO3 ---> H2NO3+NO3- , presence of an anion NO3- in solid state. My question is "why HNO3 does not conduct electricity (or it does) in solid state" ?

Offline Hunter2

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2012, 01:42:03 PM »
Of course solid NaCl is made by ions Na+ and Cl-, what is it in your opinion

Offline sankalpmittal

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2012, 01:44:29 PM »
Of course solid NaCl is made by ions Na+ and Cl-, what is it in your opinion

But solid NaCl does not have "free ions" ? Right ? Also melting point of solid HNO3 is -42o Celsius. So as soon as it solidifies , it starts melting and begins to conduct electricity. Am I correct ? (Thanks for the effort , anyways.)


Offline Hunter2

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2012, 02:31:01 PM »
If its getting liquid it coducts, if its solid it doesnt.

Offline sankalpmittal

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 09:21:09 AM »
If its getting liquid it coducts, if its solid it doesnt.

But one teacher told that in solid state, HNO3- interacts in such a way that H+ and NO3- separates and lattice energy is released.
Thus, H+ cannot exist independently and is attached to another HNO3 molecule. Thus, HNO3 molecule becomes H2NO3+ and NO3- and hence, this conducts electricity. Can you prove that it is incorrect ?

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 09:47:23 AM »
If so, this is the only molecular compound, that becomes and ionic compound, that becomes a metal.  Consider HCl, when frozen, it becomes a solid molecular compound, it doesn't conduct electricity.  Or as above, solid NaCl, in water solution, it conducts electricity, but not as a dry solid.  Only metals conduct electricity as dry solids, their electrons are delocalized, so are free to conduct electricity.

I think the burden of proof is on your teacher, or perhaps on you because you've mentioned it here, to describe the nature of the solid nitric acid you propose.
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline sankalpmittal

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 10:36:45 AM »
If so, this is the only molecular compound, that becomes and ionic compound, that becomes a metal.  Consider HCl, when frozen, it becomes a solid molecular compound, it doesn't conduct electricity.  Or as above, solid NaCl, in water solution, it conducts electricity, but not as a dry solid.  Only metals conduct electricity as dry solids, their electrons are delocalized, so are free to conduct electricity.

I think the burden of proof is on your teacher, or perhaps on you because you've mentioned it here, to describe the nature of the solid nitric acid you propose.

Please help me !!!!  :-[

I'm here to clear my doubts. Ok , can you give me a reason why solid nitric acid does not form H2NO3+ and NO3- ? Also can you further your statement by explaining why discussion of lattice energy in solid nitric acid is irrelevant ?

"And that teacher gave this explanation , and not me , which I cited in my previous post."

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 10:51:14 AM »
Sorry, I did some light searching, online and in some reference books I have, and I don't find any evidence to support your points.  I haven't looked exhaustively, and I'm not an expert materials chemist, so I'm not positive.  However, your suppositions seem extreme to me.  Extremely odd suppositions require very good citations, not "heard it somewhere."  You seem to be taking this topic personally, that's not what someone who wants to learn about something should do.
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Borek

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 10:54:35 AM »
Ask the teacher for details. Nobody here ever heard about solid nitric acid conducting electricity. Doesn't mean it is not true, but as you were already told the burden of proof lies upon the claimant.

I have reasons to doubt. As it was already signaled, fact that there are ions in the crystal lattice doesn't make the solid conductor. Nitric acid is not the only acid that can protonate itself (although I don't know to what degree it does), same can be said about sulfuric acid (in a pure acid [H3SO4+][HSO4-]=10-2.9). So if it were true that solid nitric acid is a conductor, it would be logical to expect sulfuric acid to conduct electricity as well, yet you were told nitric acid is an exception.
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Offline sankalpmittal

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 12:12:16 PM »
Sorry, I did some light searching, online and in some reference books I have, and I don't find any evidence to support your points.  I haven't looked exhaustively, and I'm not an expert materials chemist, so I'm not positive.  However, your suppositions seem extreme to me.  Extremely odd suppositions require very good citations, not "heard it somewhere."  You seem to be taking this topic personally, that's not what someone who wants to learn about something should do.

Well HNO3 solidifies at 42 o C. Can you explain on this basis , why it conducts electricity or not.

That teacher told , this. I know nothing else. Is it because of low melting point ?

Well that teacher was just B.Tech and not a scientist , anyways....

Offline Borek

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Re: Question regarding nitric acid...
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 12:47:31 PM »
You were told several times "we don't know exact answer to that question, we have only some guesses". No matter how many times you will ask you will not get the better answer from us, is it that hard to understand?

Topic locked, there is really nothing more that can be added.
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