September 29, 2023, 03:19:59 PM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)  (Read 11400 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline P-man

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Join Smart People for a better future...
    • My Website
Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« on: December 24, 2005, 03:47:01 PM »
I was thinking of venting the heat into the thermal room directly. It's kinda hard to explain without a drawing. Here I'll attach this rough sketch. Maybe it'll help. Anyways thanks for teaching me to learn.
Pierre.

Fight for the protection of our envrionmenta and habitat: http://www.wearesmartpeople.com

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27421
  • Mole Snacks: +1781/-408
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2005, 05:13:56 PM »
Sketch?

OK, there is no one, but I think I know enough to ask you two questions.

First - what is planned temperature of your heat source?

Second - you wrote somewhere that you expect thermal room to be really hot, as you need to use high temperatures resistant insulator. So - what is your planned internal temperature of the thermal room? Is it higher than your heat source?
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Offline P-man

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Join Smart People for a better future...
    • My Website
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2005, 01:04:03 PM »
The fuel cell being the source of heat, PEMs function at around 200oC. I don't mean to change that temperature.

OK, here is the sketch. I didn't have the right extention last time.
Pierre.

Fight for the protection of our envrionmenta and habitat: http://www.wearesmartpeople.com

Offline buckminsterfullerene

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
  • Mole Snacks: +8/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • 3.14159265358 9793238462643 3832795028841 97169399
    • Myspace
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2005, 01:24:47 PM »
The fuel cell being the source of heat, PEMs function at around 200oC. I don't mean to change that temperature.

OK, here is the sketch. I didn't have the right extention last time.

you mean 200oF which would be equivalent to about 93.3oC.
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline P-man

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Join Smart People for a better future...
    • My Website
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2005, 10:49:38 PM »
Sorry, I got confused. Wow, that's annoying. We'll need an accumulation of heat, then. A way to accumulate heat to raise the temperature. Anyone got any ideas?
Pierre.

Fight for the protection of our envrionmenta and habitat: http://www.wearesmartpeople.com

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27421
  • Mole Snacks: +1781/-408
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2005, 04:47:10 AM »
OK, here goes your thermal room in more acceptable format.

As for your question - I doubt there exists method of changing the temperature to store the heat that will meet your criteria - small, fast and efficient. Commonly used device is unit as used in freezers and heat pumps. However, to be efficient it must be bulky and it needs additional energy to operate.

Note that the fact such a device doesn't exist doesn't mean it was not invented yet, it is rather effect of very fundamental aspects of thermodynamics. Units used in freezers and heat pumps are developed for at least 80 years (perhaps even longer, no exact idea) and they are as efficient as it is possible. They can be made to work faster but they will neeed more energy operate and the energy is what you are trying to conserve.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Online billnotgatez

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4379
  • Mole Snacks: +222/-62
  • Gender: Male
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2005, 05:14:41 AM »
Many people on this forum are well read in chemistry and not well read in physics. Many facets of thermodynamics seem to be lacking in replies here. Since I can not count my self as well read in any of the above, my response herewith is from intuition (gut feeling) based on discussions I have seen elsewhere.

The process of capturing and concentrating heat energy takes energy. Therefore a net gain in energy may not be cost effective. There is a rule about not being able to make a perpetual motion system.

It is difficult to get meaningful work out of a low-grade heat waste.  That is why they use low-grade heat to do other things. An example would be using waste steam from a power plant to heat a greenhouse in the winter.

Again I am not an authority on this topic and I do not know of a physics room that is as good as this chemistry forum. In the meantime it may be better to approach this project piecemeal and make your fuel cell first and worry about waste heat later.


Offline buckminsterfullerene

  • Regular Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 95
  • Mole Snacks: +8/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • 3.14159265358 9793238462643 3832795028841 97169399
    • Myspace
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2005, 02:51:21 PM »
you are right it will take lots of energy to get meaning ful heat directed to any one place from the small amounts produced in this fuel cell system, that is the ideaology behind a air conditioning which defies some laws by making the heat go to a place where it will set it of balance compared to the environment and that of a fridge or cooler, and they require large amounts of energy to operate.  the point is that it will not be easy because the heat will have a tendency to disperse and go to where there is less energy and disperse, unless you are building a large system capable of producing in the hundreds of degrees celcius i do not see how this will work in a fuel cell....

i would see all options first and then think if it will be possible to direct the heat flow to whatever you will be doing with it.  but yeah plan how the cell will work first.
currently a student attending high school in South Florida, capital of all the hurricanes that come through the US, and the sunshine state.  My interests falls into electrochemistry going to renewable resources of energy, i like hydrogen fuel cells and solar energy

Offline P-man

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Join Smart People for a better future...
    • My Website
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2005, 08:27:43 PM »
This is where I am stuck. How do I get the heat tothe thermal room? If I insulated the fuel cell so the heat can't escape and only left the vents uninsulated, would theheat travel to them, and then to the thermal room?
Pierre.

Fight for the protection of our envrionmenta and habitat: http://www.wearesmartpeople.com

Online billnotgatez

  • Global Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4379
  • Mole Snacks: +222/-62
  • Gender: Male
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2005, 05:20:42 AM »
There is an experiment in thermodynamics that shows how heat energy flows.

Take one body that is cold and one that is hot. Put them in contact with each other and they will both become the same temperature that is midway between.

The above is an abbreviated explanation of the experiment.


Offline constant thinker

  • mad scientist
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-45
  • Gender: Male
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2006, 08:58:36 PM »
Remember you don't get more energy out of something than you put in it (I don't know of any machines that are equal to or more than 100% efficient).

The question that also needs to be asked how much energy will it take to get the heat into the room by either blowers or w/e means necassary and will this produce enough energy to offset what is consumed and the extra weight that'll come from the extra parts (if used in car/moving object).

Maybe a reverse air conditioner might work. By this I mean in a normal case your taking heat out of the room your in and sending it to a different (semi) isolated area and cause the heat gradient to be higher outside of the room your in. Well why not take that and flip it around so your pulling heat into your "room". The heat would obviously come from the fuel cell or whatever is generating a significant amount of heat. As 3.3.141592653 says it'll take a lot of energy. I think one of the only ways to know how well this will work is to build a working model and see if you can get enough out of it to offset the consumption.
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27421
  • Mole Snacks: +1781/-408
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2006, 02:56:59 AM »
Maybe a reverse air conditioner might work.

The idea you are referring to is called heat pump and I have already mentioned it.

Quote
I think one of the only ways to know how well this will work is to build a working model and see if you can get enough out of it to offset the consumption.

No. Much simpler way will be to calculate heat pump energy consumption and efficiency, this is simple question that any engineer working in freezers/air conditioners industry will solve in 5 minutes - if not faster. These 5 minutes of thinking can save kdollars needed for serious prototype building.

In real life nobody is going to finance prototype building if such calculations were not done - unless it is a thermodynamical idiot believing in miracles.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 02:59:10 AM by Borek »
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Offline constant thinker

  • mad scientist
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
  • Mole Snacks: +85/-45
  • Gender: Male
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2006, 07:38:37 PM »
Ooo. Sorry Borek I never put the two together. Yea your right about the calculating it. I think though it's a good bet if the calculations work out.
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' " -Ronald Reagan

"I'm for anything that gets you through the night, be it prayer, tranquilizers, or a bottle of Jack Daniels." -Frank Sinatra

Offline P-man

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
  • Mole Snacks: +13/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • Join Smart People for a better future...
    • My Website
Re:Thermal room (was: New Fuel Cell System Idea)
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2006, 07:26:44 AM »
Thanks for everything.

I am now realizing the problems of making the heat go to the room. Yet in the common fuel cell they vent the heat out anyways. So why can't I just stick the room on instead of having the heat fly out? If I insulate the whole fuel cell except for the vents, won't the heat be automatically moved towards there. If I have one small spot in the thermal room that is a bit cooler, the heat might get attracted to it. Then close off connection to the fuel cell for a while and the equilibrium won't happen. Will the thermal room get hotter? Here is where the calculations come in. Unfortunately, I can't do them. HElp?

But now that I think of it, why not just insulate the fuel cell to make the stirling engine work?

Life is all about trial and error.

 
Pierre.

Fight for the protection of our envrionmenta and habitat: http://www.wearesmartpeople.com

Sponsored Links