June 20, 2021, 08:49:32 AM
Forum Rules: Read This Before Posting


Topic: How are Van der waals constants determined?  (Read 12024 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Byrne

  • Guest
How are Van der waals constants determined?
« on: January 01, 2006, 03:41:27 PM »
How are they determined?  I'm having no luck on the Internet.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 03:53:27 PM by Mitch »

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3178
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2006, 04:40:44 PM »
the constants are derived from the critical point of the fluid.

the critical point is the pressure and temperature of the fluid at which the liquid state cannot be differentiated from the gaseous state.

if you plot a P-T graph, you will find that the critical point corresponds to the point of inflexion:

dP/dT = 0 and d2P/dT2 = 0.

By differentiating the VDW equation to find the first-order and second-order differentials, and plugging in the critical point values, the constants a and b are derrived.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 04:41:10 PM by geodome »
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2006, 05:39:09 PM »
I see... I'm currently taking an introductory calculus course in high school so I think I understand most of what you said... now its only a matter of simplifying it so I can present it to a chemisty class.  I'm wondering where I could find some data to perhaps plot of the graph that will show the point of inflection.

I also read somewhere that van der Waals constants can be determined empirically?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 05:42:39 PM by Byrne »

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3178
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2006, 07:10:24 PM »
This is the empirical method.

You can only get the values for the critical pressure and temperature by measurement - an act of experiment.

If you are not sure how to differentiate VDW equation, consult your calculus teacher. There is no physics/chemistry in this differentiation thingy. It is just mathematics.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2006, 07:17:06 PM by geodome »
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2006, 12:40:13 AM »
Ah I see...

Now  what do you mean by "at which the liquid state cannot be differentiated from the gaseous state."

Is this something you would observe in an experiment?  I don't understand exactly how something like this could be observed.

Thanks for your help by the way.

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3178
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2006, 11:23:21 PM »
both liquid and gas are fluid.

the difference between both phases is that the intermolecular distances are much larger in the cases of gas molecules, compared to that for liquid molecules.

as the temperature and pressure varies, the intermolecular distances for both the gas and liquid phases changes such that the intermoleculer distances becomes the same. At this state, one cannot differentiate liquid from gas. A fluid of such state is said to be a critical fluid.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 02:38:03 PM »
Thanks a lot for the help.  I really appreciate it.

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2006, 03:30:40 AM »
One more thing.  What pressure unit is most commonly expressed with the 'a' constant.  I find it odd how the SI unit for pressure is the pascal, yet most tables I have come across express the 'a' value in L2 . atm / mol2.

Am I just looking at older charts or do chemistry handbooks of today also commonly express this info using atm?  Why is the atm used anyway?  I am much more accustomed to using kPa when pressure is involved.

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3178
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2006, 01:32:43 PM »
Hmm.. I am not sure why the old tables use the unit atm. (perhaps atm was a more popular unit than Pa)

This is the conversion ratio: 1 atm = 1.013 kPa
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline plu

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 193
  • Mole Snacks: +15/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2006, 07:37:45 PM »
Hmm.. I am not sure why the old tables use the unit atm. (perhaps atm was a more popular unit than Pa)

This is the conversion ratio: 1 atm = 1.013 kPa

I believe it is 1 atm = 101.3 kPa = 1.013 bar (= 760 mmHg = 760 torr).
« Last Edit: January 09, 2006, 07:38:58 PM by plu »

Offline Borek

  • Mr. pH
  • Administrator
  • Deity Member
  • *
  • Posts: 26576
  • Mole Snacks: +1724/-402
  • Gender: Male
  • I am known to be occasionally wrong.
    • Chembuddy
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2006, 07:56:41 PM »
I believe it is 1 atm = 101.3 kPa = 1.013 bar (= 760 mmHg = 760 torr).

1 atm = 760 mmHg = 760 torr = 101325 Pa = 101.325 kPa = 1.0133 bar = 1013.3 = 14.0007 psi

Check EBAS ideal gas calculator, all these values are there (and it converts them if you need).

atm is a pre-SI unit. In early seventies I was teached atm, in the second half of seventies I was teached kPa.
ChemBuddy chemical calculators - stoichiometry, pH, concentration, buffer preparation, titrations.info, pH-meter.info

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2006, 09:25:49 PM »
1 atm = 760 mmHg = 760 torr = 101325 Pa = 101.325 kPa = 1.0133 bar = 1013.3 = 14.0007 psi

Check EBAS ideal gas calculator, all these values are there (and it converts them if you need).

atm is a pre-SI unit. In early seventies I was teached atm, in the second half of seventies I was teached kPa.

I understand all this, but my main question is why is it that most of the data I'm finding on the internet is expressed using atm pressure units as opposed to kPa pressure units with regards to van der Waals constants.

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2006, 12:06:36 AM »
Apparantly van der Waals constants can be estimated through the relations viewable at the following link, scroll about a quarter of the page down.  Where did these relations come from?

http://www.ccl.net/cca/documents/dyoung/topics-orig/eq_state.html

Offline Donaldson Tan

  • Editor, New Asia Republic
  • Retired Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3178
  • Mole Snacks: +261/-13
  • Gender: Male
    • New Asia Republic
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2006, 11:54:04 AM »
the constants are derived from the critical point of the fluid.
dP/dT = 0 and d2P/dT2 = 0.

This is how they derive it. They use the critical values to substitute for values of P, T, and V.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Byrne

  • Guest
Re:How are Van der waals constants determined?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2006, 02:46:29 PM »
This is how they derive it. They use the critical values to substitute for values of P, T, and V.

Then where are those relations coming from?

Sponsored Links