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Topic: National Olympiad preparation  (Read 19222 times)

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Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2013, 12:58:38 PM »
I saw the modern type of problems. They contain a lot of questions. Some are really dumb, but some are very hard. I actually learned some topics that I didn't need to for the National Olympiad, and I will probably check the advanced topics and preparatory problems of this years IChO, but where are they?

The hardest questions at the IChO I find usually are simply random (e.g. check out the practical questions from 2007 - one of them was literally unsolvable using logic!).

If anyone does have the list of advanced topics for this year's IChO it would be great if they could post them here. If not then that isn't a problem because most of them aren't really "advanced" anyway. (Organic and physical are usually fairly standard, taken from undergraduate syllabuses; inorganic is often something maverick which I haven't studied at all)

Offline Rutherford

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2013, 04:40:09 AM »
I use Wade and Klein organic chemistry. I also have Atkins' physical chemistry.
Where are the solutions of the problems in Klein's book?

Offline Sophia7X

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2013, 06:46:08 PM »
Solutions manual
Entropy happens.

Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2013, 06:51:06 PM »
Solutions manual

Both of these books go well above the level of the Olympiads in my experience, at least in terms of knowledge. In terms of intellectual stretch the Olympiad is much further of course.

I'm not too sure where to find nice difficult problems to stretch beyond the Olympiad in that sense. However if you want more advanced knowledge the Oxford Chemistry Primers are quite advanced, extending from bare minimum (post-16 science) to around 2nd or 3rd year undergraduate study on each topic they cover.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2013, 04:01:06 AM »
Solutions manual
Okay, thanks.

Solutions manual

Both of these books go well above the level of the Olympiads in my experience, at least in terms of knowledge. In terms of intellectual stretch the Olympiad is much further of course.

I'm not too sure where to find nice difficult problems to stretch beyond the Olympiad in that sense. However if you want more advanced knowledge the Oxford Chemistry Primers are quite advanced, extending from bare minimum (post-16 science) to around 2nd or 3rd year undergraduate study on each topic they cover.
I checked the Oxford, you need to pay for every field. I think the problems from mine olympiad are difficult and much logic is needed to solve them, but I went few times through all of them, so I have to find other problems. Will see how the challenge problems in Klein work for me.

Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2013, 12:07:12 PM »
Solutions manual
Okay, thanks.

Solutions manual

Both of these books go well above the level of the Olympiads in my experience, at least in terms of knowledge. In terms of intellectual stretch the Olympiad is much further of course.

I'm not too sure where to find nice difficult problems to stretch beyond the Olympiad in that sense. However if you want more advanced knowledge the Oxford Chemistry Primers are quite advanced, extending from bare minimum (post-16 science) to around 2nd or 3rd year undergraduate study on each topic they cover.
I checked the Oxford, you need to pay for every field. I think the problems from mine olympiad are difficult and much logic is needed to solve them, but I went few times through all of them, so I have to find other problems. Will see how the challenge problems in Klein work for me.

If you have covered the material in Klein's book you should find the problems easy. None of them are long or intellectually manipulative like the ones from your Olympiad that you posted here. But some of the material in the book is above the level of knowledge required for the IChO.

Offline Sophia7X

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2013, 12:12:55 PM »
Well, the no matter how much you study for the olympiad, it's still tricky and difficult... they have a board of evil geniuses or something writing their problems. Textbooks are more geared toward learning the content rather than solving evil problems written by evil geniuses  ;D
Entropy happens.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2013, 12:37:42 PM »
Big-Daddy, I checked today the problems from Klein's book and you are right, won't help me too much. Some good logical problems I need. I will check the preparatory problems now  8).
Textbooks are more geared toward learning the content rather than solving evil problems written by evil geniuses  ;D
This would be the conclusion  :D.

Offline no username inserted

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2013, 12:57:49 PM »
As far as I know , there are two separate books written by David Klein. One is organic chemistry as a second language and the other one is just named organic chemistry (with white front cover). Which one do you use?
Raderford , if you're looking for nice logical problems , why don't you go for Clayden? Klein's problems are too easy.

Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2013, 01:36:35 PM »
Well, the no matter how much you study for the olympiad, it's still tricky and difficult... they have a board of evil geniuses or something writing their problems. Textbooks are more geared toward learning the content rather than solving evil problems written by evil geniuses  ;D

You will encounter more and more of these types of problems at higher level. ;D

Big-Daddy, I checked today the problems from Klein's book and you are right, won't help me too much. Some good logical problems I need. I will check the preparatory problems now  8).
Textbooks are more geared toward learning the content rather than solving evil problems written by evil geniuses  ;D
This would be the conclusion  :D.

Are the 2013 preparatory problems available yet? Please link if so.

I have some books which provide high-level logical questions but a) the knowledge required is well over IChO-level and b) so is the difficulty for some problems. Ask if you want the names.

Edit: I have found them. http://icho2013.chem.msu.ru/index.php/en/problems-solutions/preparatory-problems It looks like the topics will be great this year. I am on Q3 of the Problems so far, great fun.

Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2013, 01:41:35 PM »
Raderford , if you're looking for nice logical problems , why don't you go for Clayden? Klein's problems are too easy.

Good call, though still not at the IChO level intellectually.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2013, 02:06:37 PM »
As far as I know , there are two separate books written by David Klein. One is organic chemistry as a second language and the other one is just named organic chemistry (with white front cover). Which one do you use?
Raderford , if you're looking for nice logical problems , why don't you go for Clayden? Klein's problems are too easy.
It is only "Organic Chemistry''. I will check Clayden, thanks for the suggestion.

Well, the no matter how much you study for the olympiad, it's still tricky and difficult... they have a board of evil geniuses or something writing their problems. Textbooks are more geared toward learning the content rather than solving evil problems written by evil geniuses  ;D

You will encounter more and more of these types of problems at higher level. ;D

Big-Daddy, I checked today the problems from Klein's book and you are right, won't help me too much. Some good logical problems I need. I will check the preparatory problems now  8).
Textbooks are more geared toward learning the content rather than solving evil problems written by evil geniuses  ;D
This would be the conclusion  :D.

Are the 2013 preparatory problems available yet? Please link if so.

I have some books which provide high-level logical questions but a) the knowledge required is well over IChO-level and b) so is the difficulty for some problems. Ask if you want the names.

Edit: I have found them. http://icho2013.chem.msu.ru/index.php/en/problems-solutions/preparatory-problems It looks like the topics will be great this year. I am on Q3 of the Problems so far, great fun.
Advanced topic 1.,2.,3. and 6. don't seem very tough, but 4.( ???) and 5. I have to start from zero  :-\. Generally, the problems seem very interesting and I will probably attempt them.

Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2013, 02:13:11 PM »
Advanced topic 1.,2.,3. and 6. don't seem very tough, but 4.( ???) and 5. I have to start from zero  :-\. Generally, the problems seem very interesting and I will probably attempt them.

As predicted the "topics of advanced difficulty" physical ones are fine ... there is no pure inorganic (good for me) ... the biochemistry seems like great fun. As for the heterocycles that probably means they have some harder than usual organic problems planned. :)

Offline Rutherford

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2013, 02:44:14 PM »
Attempted the first one and got:
1. Pros:
-bigger distance between the layers, so they can be easier separated;
-the carbon atoms attached to oxygens are more reactive that the regular atoms in graphite and they can easier undergo reactions during the synthesis of graphene.   
    Cons:
-you have to remove oxygen.
2. x=0.375, xmax=0.5;
3. -OH, -COOH, -C=C-, -C-O-C-
4. should I count from the picture or what  ?
5. CH0.22O0.46*0.67H2O

What do you think, is anything correct? Anyone has an idea about 4?

Offline Big-Daddy

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Re: National Olympiad preparation
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2013, 03:39:30 PM »
Attempted the first one and got:
1. Pros:
-bigger distance between the layers, so they can be easier separated;
-the carbon atoms attached to oxygens are more reactive that the regular atoms in graphite and they can easier undergo reactions during the synthesis of graphene.   
    Cons:
-you have to remove oxygen.
2. x=0.375, xmax=0.5;
3. -OH, -COOH, -C=C-, -C-O-C-
4. should I count from the picture or what  ?
5. CH0.22O0.46*0.67H2O

What do you think, is anything correct? Anyone has an idea about 4?

I skipped problems 1 and 2 so can't comment, sorry. :p They seemed less interesting than 4, 7, 9, etc. so I left them out for the moment.

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