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Topic: Decarboxylaction on heating  (Read 4013 times)

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Offline Rutherford

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Decarboxylaction on heating
« on: January 25, 2013, 01:24:14 PM »
What carboxylic acids will decarboxylate and not dehydrate when heated and why?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2013, 01:29:25 PM »
Decarboxylation usually requires a 6 membered "transition state" where the H of the acid is transferred to the O of a carbonyl group (ketone, ester etc) you get a cyclic movement of electrons to give CO2 and the enol of the carbonyl which tautomerises.
So beta carbonyl acids like acetoacetic acid.
See drawing. R can be alkyl, ester, even H,  I think. Also aromatic, heteroaromatic etc.


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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2013, 02:34:51 PM »
Why does oxalic acid undergo this reaction? It's alpha carbonyl acid.

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2013, 05:48:47 PM »
Heat it hard enough and it will decarboxylate, not by this process though.
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Offline Babcock_Hall

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2013, 06:02:16 PM »
This comment might be judged slightly off-topic, but I am not intending to derail.  Biological catalysts such as thiamine pyrophosphate (which is a coenzyme) make alpha-ketoacids like pyruvic acid behave more like beta-ketoacids.  In other words, they decarboxylate much more easily than without this catalyst.  The nitrogen of the thiazolium ring acts as the electron sink for the decarboxylation.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2013, 06:31:59 PM by Babcock_Hall »

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 04:14:02 AM »
I am a little confused now. Malonic acid is a beta carbonyl acid, but it can easily dehydrate. Can any acid decarboxylate if heated enough?

This comment might be judged slightly off-topic, but I am not intending to derail.  Biological catalysts such as thiamine pyrophosphate (which is a coenzyme) make alpha-ketoacids like pyruvic acid behave more like beta-ketoacids.  In other words, they decarboxylate much more easily than without this catalyst.  The nitrogen of the thiazolium ring acts as the electron sink for the decarboxylation.
I was thinking more about the lab experiments rather than the processes in the human body, but thanks for the info.

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 04:29:46 AM »
If you heat them hard enough, yes
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 04:33:16 AM »
Okay, one last question. You said here that beta carbonyl acids decarboxylate (on heating) easy and that oxalic acid (which is dicarboxylic) can decarboxylate, too. My question is: can the simple aliphatic acids like acetic acid decarboxylate only on heating, too?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 04:35:50 AM »
As I said if you heat them hard enough.
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Decarboxylaction on heating
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 05:06:11 AM »
I couldn't believe that acetic acid and similar can decarboxylate only on heating (without a base being present). Thanks for the help.

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