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Topic: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?  (Read 21525 times)

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Offline orgopete

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2013, 03:18:45 PM »
@souro

…Well, if whether or not a fruitful reaction occurs determines solubility (!!) then we should expect a solution of an alkyl halide in an organic solvent to react with Aqueous solution of KCN , because a fruitful reaction should occur. However, the latter reaction does not occur , even after heating for very long times…


Quote
…if the halide is small, like Bromoethane, it is water-soluble and hence reacts…

It appears both sides are covered.

Cyanide reactions are SN2 and not aided by polarization, but are aided by aprotic solvents. Are you surprised that a gas phase reaction would be slower?

The more basic methyl flouride is much more soluble than other halides. Methanol is miscible in water. Ethylene is not, even I can discern a difference in an interaction with water. You have to use an acid to increase the solubility of an alkene.

Are you trolling or do you have an actual question?
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Offline curiouscat

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2013, 10:44:56 PM »
Are you trolling or do you have an actual question?

+1

Offline souro10

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2013, 03:09:29 AM »
Not trolling. Not sure why some people perceive cross-questioning as trolling.


Coming back to it, my actual question is, why adding acid in water increases the solubility of alkenes, just what you stated without reasoning ? Is it soluble because it is reactive to acid? Isn't it solubility first, reactivity next?

Secondly, why does adding acid to water increase the solubility of alkenes in water more than it would increase the solubility of the corresponding alkyl halide, derived from the same alkene? 

I do understand that I have weak concepts in Chemistry, hence the questions  :)

Offline curiouscat

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2013, 03:11:37 AM »
Isn't it solubility first, reactivity next?

Does CaCO3 dissolve in HCl or react?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2013, 03:25:41 AM »
Have a look at the reaction in the attachment. Hence the solubility in water.

Can this happen with an alkyl halide?
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Offline souro10

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2013, 03:58:02 AM »
Thank you so much , I understand now.
But if the alkyl halide is tertiary then it can form solvated ions of alkyl cation and halide anion , isn't it?
So tertiary halides are soluble in water, isn't it?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2013, 04:33:46 AM »
A tertiary halide will not dissociate in water. I think their water solubity is low to non existant.
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Offline souro10

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2013, 04:56:43 AM »
" But what can we say about an SN1 reaction? Here, the rate-determining step is simple heterolysis - bond breaking without apparently bond making to balance it. In the gas phase, bond dissociation energies show, heterolysis of an alkyl halide would require a greate deal of energy : 149 kcal/mol for tert-butyl bromide, and even more for other substrates. Yet in an SN1 reaction heterolysis occurs at moderate temperatures with an Eact of only 20 to 30 kcal/mol. This leaves a difference of 130 kcal or more to be provied. Where does this very large amount of energy come from?

The answer is, once again, from bond formation: not formation of one bond as in SN2 reaction , but formation of many bonds- bonds between the ions produced and the solvent. The ions are not generated as naked particles in the near emptiness of the gas phase; instead , they are generated as solvated ions..

The reactant has a dipole moment, and forms dipole-dipole bonds to solvent molecules. The transition state, we have seen has a stretched carbon-halogen bond and well-developed positive and negative charges. It has much greater dipole moment than the reactant and forms much stronger dipole dipole bonds to the solvent. The solvent thus stabilizes the transition state more than it does the reactant, lowers the Eact and speeds up the reaction.

... On the basis of this, then, the ionizing power of the solvent depends upon how well it solvates the ions. In turn, the ability of solvate ions depends in part on the polarity of the solvent- other things being equal, the more polar the solvent, the stronger the ion-dipole bonds. Thus, SN1 reactions of netural substrates go faster in water than in ethanol; they go faster in say 20% ethanol (20:80 ethanol:water mixture) than in 80% ethanol .

... Cations are solvated chiefly through unshared pairs of electrons anions are solvated chiefly through hydrogen bonding. Now , here, the cations are carbocations because of their dispersed charge they form weaker ion-dipole bonds than smaller metal cations. In the ionization of these organic substrates , therefore, solvation of the cation is relatively weak; it is the solvation of the anion that is particularly important. For this we want solvents capable of hydrogen bonding, that is protic solvants. Thus SN1 reactions proceed more rapidly in water, alcohols and mixtures of water and alcohol than in aprotic solvents like DMF , DMSO and HMPT "

I think the above text means tertiary halides get solvated by water molecules?
The text is from Morrison and  Boyd.

Offline curiouscat

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2013, 05:06:54 AM »

I think the above text means tertiary halides get solvated by water molecules?


Why don't you look a bit for data.

Offline souro10

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2013, 05:11:33 AM »
I looked for data. Wikipedia says "  It is sparingly soluble in water, with a tendency to undergo spontaneous solvolysis when dissolved into it ... When tert-butyl chloride is dissolved in water, a polar and protic solvent, the bulky chloride substituent is carried away by it, and isolated from the aliphatic chain, causing an heterolytic rupture of the compound, giving rise to a carbocation which eventually becomes a tertiary alcohol after a water molecule reacts with it, releasing hydrochloric acid as the final product "

Am I misinterpreting the text or the data? Am I misunderstanding you statement "A tertiary halide will not dissociate in water. I think their water solubity is low to non existant." I think your statement contradicts the book and the data. These sources say it does dissociate, doesn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Offline souro10

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2013, 05:22:31 AM »
I don't understand. If a tertiary halide does not dissociate in water, how does the solvolysis reaction occur?

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2013, 05:22:41 AM »
I also read that. I think the solvolysis will be very slow and reversible.
You may have picked a special case in tertiary butyl chloride, what is the case in the general series of alkyl halides?
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Offline discodermolide

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2013, 05:26:20 AM »
I don't understand. If a tertiary halide does not dissociate in water, how does the solvolysis reaction occur?

Presumably it occurs by H bonding between the halide and the water weakening the C-Cl bond, eventually water may attack the slightly more positively charges C atom, producing the alcohol, and HCl, which will promote the reverse reaction.
As I said tertiary butyl chloride may be a special case, what about the rest of the alkyl halides?
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Offline souro10

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2013, 05:33:22 AM »
I did state some time back that small alkyl halides like Ethylbromide are soluble in water.
Larger primary halides shouldn't be soluble in water.
I was talking about tertiary halides, and your statement was specific to tertiary halides too, I think.

If the attack by water occurred before the C-X bond was completely broken, as you presume, many things cannot be explained. If the reaction was carried out with an optically active tertiary halide, there should've been a much much higher amount of inversion product in that case- which isn't the case.

Offline discodermolide

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Re: Alkenes soluble in cold sulphuric acid, alkyl halides are not -why?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2013, 05:37:55 AM »
Tertiary butyl chloride is sparingly soluble in water, what sparingly means I do not know. If the reaction is carried out with an optically active halide you may expect racemisation if an SN1 process is active.
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