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Topic: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin  (Read 12511 times)

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Offline maryjleeee

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100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« on: December 18, 2013, 04:23:14 PM »
Hello Chemists!
I am looking for answers regarding the use of 100% nicotine mixed with propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin. I am not sure how familiar you all are with vaping so I will include a short explanation taken from GrimmGreen.com.

"Vaping utilizes a Propylene Glycol or Vegetable Glycerin based liquid, mixed with small amounts of nicotine and food grade flavoring that then get vaporized in a small battery powered atomizer, simulating the experience of smoking. The vapor created is inhaled and exhaled much like cigarette smoke hence the term “VAPING” as opposed to “SMOKING”. Vaping is not proven 100% safe."

I am currently in the process of creating an e-liquid company and have a few questions regarding mixing nicotine with PV & VG. Just to clear things up, e-liquid is the nicotine, PG, VG, and flavor mix that is smoked through a vape. Currently, no juice companies that are making juice are a research and development company. They do not have any chemists and scientists creating and experimenting their juices. Thus, they use low quality materials and this greatly affects the flavor of the juices.

Unlike many other eliquid makers, I am able to get my materials from companies like Sigma-Aldrich. My concerns are my lack of experience in the chemistry field. I am looking to use 100% or 1000mg nicotine in my juices in order to reduce the amount of unknown fillers that are normally in nicotine mixed with fillers and PGVG. Obviously it is extremely dangerous for me to be handling pure nicotine with little chemistry experience and without proper equipment. I will be handling the pure nicotine at a lab at a local college so I have access to ventilation hoods, beakers, etc. Alny suggestions, warnings, and tips would be greatly appreciated. Now most nicotine that juicers use are 36mg or 60mg strength in a 50/50 PGVG mix or 100% PG mix.

Now finally to question: If I were to obtain 100% nicotine, how much PG would I need in order to get the strength down to 60mg?

I will be answering any questions that need to be answered if there is any confusion. Please e-mail me if possible, if not I will be checking this forum daily. Thank you in advance!!!

-Mary

Offline Dan

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 04:56:21 PM »
I was wondering how long it would be until we had a thread on this.

I'm familiar with electronic cigarettes and for the benefit of those not familiar, I am going to explain some of the terms you are using to my fellow chemists:

a few questions regarding mixing nicotine with PV & VG.

PV is a typo - Mary means PG (propylene glycol). VG is vegetable glycerin.

Quote
They do not have any chemists and scientists creating and experimenting their juices. Thus, they use low quality materials and this greatly affects the flavor of the juices.

Juice refers to a solution of nicotine and flavourings in a mixture of VG and PG.

Quote
Now most nicotine that juicers use are 36mg or 60mg strength in a 50/50 PGVG mix or 100% PG mix.

To clarify, the strengths here refer to the mass of nicotine in 10 mL of solution. So "36 mg strength" means 3.6% mass per volume (i.e. 3.6 mg/mL)

Quote
Now finally to question: If I were to obtain 100% nicotine, how much PG would I need in order to get the strength down to 60mg?

Honestly if you don't know how to approach this you should not be starting a company. It is very irresponsible for you to be mixing toxic substances intended for human consumption if you have such little understanding of basic dimensional analysis. It is unqualified have-a-go opportunists that will ultimately bring in tight regulation and probably extra taxation.

Quote
They do not have any chemists and scientists creating and experimenting their juices.

And nor do you. I suggest you either hire hire a chemist or take some courses yourself.

Sorry to be blunt but you really need to consider the consequences of what you are attempting.
My research: Google Scholar and Researchgate

Offline maryjleeee

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 06:45:47 PM »
Thank you for the clarification and even greater thanks for your reply. I would not be handling the nicotine myself. I am currently in contact with a chemist at the college at which the nicotine would be mixed with the PG if I decide that this is the route that I decide to go with. Currently, juice makers order nicotine at safer dosages, such as 60mg strength in a 60ml bottle. Juices are mixed according to a juice calculator such as the one found on http://www.todmuller.com/ejuice/ejuice.php. The reason for my inquiry was to figure out whether or not it would be economically smarter to buy 100% nicotine and mix it into PG or to buy a lower dosage nicotine that has already been mixed with PG such as the one found on http://www.mtbakervapor.com/236-ml-unflavored-nicotine-juice-usa-made/. It is also debated whether or not using a 100% nicotine would affect the flavor of the juices. As of right now I am mixing juices myself to test out flavors. Until laws and regulations are put into place, I would be selling juice like many other juice companies are currently doing, which is by retail and distribution. We have taken into consideration that this industry will soon be strictly regulated and are paying close attention to any news on the matter. We are currently in the process of figuring out the regulatory aspects of the company and would eventually like to become a research and development company so we could have chemists and real scientists to make the juices. Again, thank you so much for your input and I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.

Best, Mary

Offline 408

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 09:54:49 PM »
I have a feeling dissolving pure nicotine in the solvent is cheaper.  After all that is all your supplier of nicotine solution is doing.  But nicotine solutions, as explained above, are one of those things not to be trifled with.  A mistake with concentration could be lethal to the end user. 

Diluting pure nicotine to a solution, vs a premade solution will not  change flavour.

This is an interesting market though.  At a recent shareholder meeting for one of the big tobacco companies, there was a lot of discussion on the future of e-cigarettes, and the big companies are starting to get in as cigarette shipment volume falls. 

I am going to cruch the numbers because I am curious about margins.  Aldrich is not known for being cheap.

Checking aldrich, 100ml of nicotine cost $255.  If you dilute this to a max conc of 36 mg/ml. that 255 gets you 2.8 L of solution.  The site you reference is selling 236 ml for $30, or 2.8 L for $356. 

2.8 L - 100 mL= 2.7L of say, PG.  The cheapest grade of PG from aldrich costs 60 per kg (although phmaceutical grade costs 250/500mL) assume a density around 1 for easy math, and 2.7 L of PG costs 160.

255+ 160=417$ per 2.8L solution.  vs that site at $365 /2.8 L.

This is why these companies use lower grade materials, because aldrich is very expensive. 


Offline billnotgatez

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 10:04:08 PM »
The chemist on your staff should be easily able to do concentration computations for you.
I would the be your job as a entrepreneur to do the cost benefit analysis with the various combination of products available to you. Recollect that overhead cost should be added in as well. For instance, dealing with different levels of toxicity may require special handling. Also, add in the insurance policy costs.  Even when you have the various corporate structures (like LLC) you will not be personally protected if you do not provide for consumer complaints.

Edit
It has been brought to my attention we should note that
This is a medicinal product, nicotine is extremely toxic through skin absorption.

and from my understanding
nicotine and caffeine in high concentrations are toxic than in the low doses in common use. 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2013, 06:04:32 AM by billnotgatez »

Offline maryjleeee

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2013, 10:50:22 AM »
I have a feeling dissolving pure nicotine in the solvent is cheaper.  After all that is all your supplier of nicotine solution is doing.  But nicotine solutions, as explained above, are one of those things not to be trifled with.  A mistake with concentration could be lethal to the end user. 

Diluting pure nicotine to a solution, vs a premade solution will not  change flavour.

This is an interesting market though.  At a recent shareholder meeting for one of the big tobacco companies, there was a lot of discussion on the future of e-cigarettes, and the big companies are starting to get in as cigarette shipment volume falls. 

I am going to cruch the numbers because I am curious about margins.  Aldrich is not known for being cheap.

Checking aldrich, 100ml of nicotine cost $255.  If you dilute this to a max conc of 36 mg/ml. that 255 gets you 2.8 L of solution.  The site you reference is selling 236 ml for $30, or 2.8 L for $356. 

2.8 L - 100 mL= 2.7L of say, PG.  The cheapest grade of PG from aldrich costs 60 per kg (although phmaceutical grade costs 250/500mL) assume a density around 1 for easy math, and 2.7 L of PG costs 160.

255+ 160=417$ per 2.8L solution.  vs that site at $365 /2.8 L.

This is why these companies use lower grade materials, because aldrich is very expensive.

I wonder how much of a difference lower grade materials would have on the flavor of juices. Definitely something I will try to figure out in the future. Even though Aldrich is an expensive company, the high grade materials would attract many vapers. Also, the profit margin for juices is fairly high so I would be willing to spend extra money if it meant that the consumers of my juice were getting healthier and tastier juices.

I have heard that many tobacco companies are eager to jump into the vaping industry because they are losing a ton of money every day. Although nothing has been proven yet, I truly believe that vaping is a much safer alternative to smoking cigarettes. As an ex-cigarette smoker, I can definitely say that I feel so much better physically and mentally since I have started vaping. My main concern with tobacco companies entering the vaping industry would be what other chemicals besides nicotine, PG, VG, and flavoring they would start to put into the juices. I honestly have no idea how the FDA approved cigarettes as safe when there are over a thousand dangerous chemicals in them that have been proven to kill so many people each year. I think that once these big tobacco companies enter the vaping industry, they will find a way to make it unhealthy. Many people who vape are concerned about this and I honestly don't think true vapers would ever buy juices made from tobacco companies but these companies do have a ton of money and would be able to attract inexperienced vapers through marketing. I am very interested in how the tobacco companies are handling this huge change in the market and look forward to hearing more if you are willing to share. Thank you for your calculations and input!!! I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best, Mary

Offline maryjleeee

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2013, 10:52:59 AM »
The chemist on your staff should be easily able to do concentration computations for you.
I would the be your job as a entrepreneur to do the cost benefit analysis with the various combination of products available to you. Recollect that overhead cost should be added in as well. For instance, dealing with different levels of toxicity may require special handling. Also, add in the insurance policy costs.  Even when you have the various corporate structures (like LLC) you will not be personally protected if you do not provide for consumer complaints.

Edit
It has been brought to my attention we should note that
This is a medicinal product, nicotine is extremely toxic through skin absorption.

and from my understanding
nicotine and caffeine in high concentrations are toxic than in the low doses in common use.

Thank you! We are currently in the process of crunching numbers and are experimenting with flavors.

Offline 408

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2013, 08:18:33 PM »

I wonder how much of a difference lower grade materials would have on the flavor of juices. Definitely something I will try to figure out in the future. Even though Aldrich is an expensive company, the high grade materials would attract many vapers. Also, the profit margin for juices is fairly high so I would be willing to spend extra money if it meant that the consumers of my juice were getting healthier and tastier juices.

I have heard that many tobacco companies are eager to jump into the vaping industry because they are losing a ton of money every day. Although nothing has been proven yet, I truly believe that vaping is a much safer alternative to smoking cigarettes. As an ex-cigarette smoker, I can definitely say that I feel so much better physically and mentally since I have started vaping. My main concern with tobacco companies entering the vaping industry would be what other chemicals besides nicotine, PG, VG, and flavoring they would start to put into the juices. I honestly have no idea how the FDA approved cigarettes as safe when there are over a thousand dangerous chemicals in them that have been proven to kill so many people each year. I think that once these big tobacco companies enter the vaping industry, they will find a way to make it unhealthy. Many people who vape are concerned about this and I honestly don't think true vapers would ever buy juices made from tobacco companies but these companies do have a ton of money and would be able to attract inexperienced vapers through marketing. I am very interested in how the tobacco companies are handling this huge change in the market and look forward to hearing more if you are willing to share. Thank you for your calculations and input!!! I look forward to hearing from you again.

Best, Mary

They are not losing a ton of money a day.  From 2011 to 2012 Philip Morris only grew revenue by 1% instead of the historical double digit growth.  The bigger immediate worry for the tobacco giants is smuggled cigarettes coming out of Kaliningrad, right now the Euro region is Philip Morris' weak spot partially due to this, partially due to economic situation over there.  These smuggled cigarettes, I think the brand is "Jin Ling" have no excise taxes and as a result are able to be priced far below the rest of big tobacco. But long term big tobacco does view vaping as a threat,  so look at recent buyout like Lorrilard purchasing Blu-cig and SKYCIG in the last year. 
And if you want to see how they deal with competition in the nicotine-addiction market, they tend to buyout or lobby for regulations of competitors.  For example there was a type of tobacco that was being taxed less than cigarettes in the US, so people were rolling their own more.  I think it was Altria that was lobbying for higher taxes on this.
but I digress


Of course, if your niche is to provide a premium product, you could easily be selling for double the competitors with a strong enough brand image.   

Regarding the addition of extra chemicals beyond flavor by big tobacco, I think you would be surprised to find out that the chemicals they add are just flavoring.  The ones that get lots of attention (HCN, arsenic, polonium) are actually a result of either combustion of tobacco or toxins the tobacco plant likes to collect.  Vaping of course removes all but the chosen chems so I agree that it is better for health.  The market has lots of room to grow, so I am very interested in how you are going to position yourself in this situation. 

Offline redstripe787

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Re: 100% Nicotine, propylene glycol, & vegetable glycerin
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2017, 05:53:42 PM »

check out this article about mixing http://blog.jvapes.com/life-e-liquid-flavorchemist/
« Last Edit: February 02, 2017, 07:48:52 PM by Arkcon »

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