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Topic: Phenantrene dipole moment  (Read 4411 times)

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Offline Rutherford

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Phenantrene dipole moment
« on: January 11, 2014, 10:39:42 AM »
Why does the left compound have a net dipole moment and the right not? I thought that both have zero moments, as both chlorine atoms are in the same plane and oppositely oriented.

Offline mkurek

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2014, 04:07:13 PM »
The compound on the left has two chlorine atoms concentrated on the same side of the molecule. This gives it a partial negative charge towards that end of the molecule.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2014, 04:36:33 PM »
Why? How don't the dipole moments of C-Cl cancel out?

Offline mkurek

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2014, 06:05:27 PM »
That's what causes the dipole moment. Look at the electronegativity values for carbon and for chlorine.

Which is more electronegative?

Chlorine is. That's why there's a dipole moment.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2014, 05:58:26 AM »
I know, but I couldn't figure out why don't they cancel out, the two C-Cl dipoles, but now I see, thanks.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2014, 05:59:57 AM »
How to calculate the net dipole moment of the left molecule if the dipole moment of C-Cl bond is marked as x?

Offline Corribus

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2014, 12:01:31 PM »
Put the cartesian origin at the center of the molecule, with the y-axis parallel to the line drawn between the two chlorines. Now consider dipole moment vectors. There is no dipole moment in the y-direction because there is a line of symmetry (the x-axis) between the two chlorines. What about the x-direction?
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Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 08:28:51 AM »
It looks like in the image I uploaded.  The intensity of a is 1, of b is 1 but in opposite direction, so their sum in y direction is 0. In the x direction, projection of vector a: a1=a·cos90°=0, projection of vector b is b1=b·cos90°=0, but this is surely wrong. Where is the mistake?

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 09:59:58 AM »
Oops. I see the mistake, the vector begin starts from the cartesian origin. Then the vectors should be divided into two components x and y, y cancels out, x adds. What's the value of angle alpha?

Offline Corribus

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2014, 10:05:32 AM »
Right. The total displacement vector in the x direction will be double whatever the distance between one of the chlorine atoms and the y axis is (double, because there are two chlorines). There is no z axis to worry about here because the molecule is flat. The dipole moment will be the magnitude of the displacement vector times the charge density of chlorine.

EDIT: Doesn't really matter what the angle alpha is. The y components cancel out, so all that matters is the x-components, which you can get without alpha. Remember, it's the total displacement vector that counts, not the individual vectors.  If you add your two vectors, you'll see you get a total vector lying exactly on the x axis (alpha disappears).
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 10:09:42 AM »
But, to calculate the x component and the net dipole moment I need the angle alpha. How to calculate x without the angle?

Offline Corribus

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2014, 10:12:12 AM »
You do not necessarily need alpha. All you need is coordinate information from either a good computation or an experiment (e.g., crystal structure). Calculating an actual magnitude for the dipole moment is a fair bit more difficult than just determining whether it is zero or nonzero, because you also need the charge density of chlorine.
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Phenantrene dipole moment
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 10:14:01 AM »
Okay, thanks very much :).

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