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Topic: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?  (Read 19299 times)

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Offline jensgt

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Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« on: March 10, 2014, 04:27:26 PM »
This is the worksheet I have to do...the only example we have done was one for H2O which was pretty simple.  My confusion now is that we are using the irrep and character table for D2H which we have never done.  The book is not very helpful as it uses different terminology than we used in class examples and it's confusing me.  My character table is ok and my x,y,z should be ok based on that so I believe it is my Ni I am getting wrong.  This is the number of atoms that don't change position for a symmetry operation?  For water I understand that the E = 3 and C2V = 1...I get that.  What is confusing me is for this worksheet am I supposed to figure out the E, C2z, C2x etc for CO2?  If so my numbers for Ni are wrong...but even when I changed them I am still getting things to not go right. 

When I do 3N - x,y,z - Rx,Ry I am not coming up with 4 vibrational modes but that is what I realized I should have. 

One other question is for Summation/h.  Is my h in this case = 8? 

Last question when converting from the D2h to D∞h tables....is it B2g and B3g that together = Πg or is that saying that either of them are equal to pi g? 





Thanks so much, I have to figure this out by Friday...I am glad I got an early start on it.  I feel like I am really close to understanding but I am doing something wrong that probably is simple to fix.

Offline Corribus

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2014, 10:26:30 PM »
Could you please state your question more clearly. I'm having a hard time understanding your point of confusion. Also, I have a hard time seeing embedded figures because my ISP blocks them, so the more you can type out the better.
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2014, 11:26:12 AM »
I'm having trouble figuring out the reducible representations for co2. 

Basically the worksheet says to use d2h character tables to figure out the vibrational modes for co2 and then translate them to d(inf)h characters. 

I have my [x,y,z correct...but because I am making mistakes with the [Ni....my [3N is not coming out right.

Once I get the 3N (ex: Ag + B1g + B2g etc)....I know I have to subtract the x,y,z characters and the Rx, Ry and come up with the final 3N-5 which should be 4 vibrational modes.  I came up with 6 there.  I have tried it several other ways and I guess I'm going wrong with identifying how each symmetry group effects the molecule and which atoms don't move.

Offline Corribus

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2014, 12:20:04 PM »
Ok, let's take this one step at a time. What do you get for your reducible representation for all vibrational, rotational and translational modes of your three atoms, using D2h character table? (Axis system doesn't really matter, but let's use z-axis as the long molecular axis.)
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2014, 03:58:39 PM »
The best I could come up with so far was the following

E   C2z    C2y    C2x    i     σxy     σxz      σyz

2     2      0        0     0      0         2         2

This was based on something I read online but it seems strange to me.

I feel like E should be 3 since it has 3 atoms in CO2...and then a bunch of them should be 1...but when I tried that it did not work out the way I expected it to either. 

My x,y,z...as in adding up the 1 and -1 from the character table where the x, y and z are found is this

E   C2z    C2y    C2x    i     σxy     σxz      σyz

3    -1      -1       -1     -3    1        1          1

Im pretty sure that is right!!!!

Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 04:24:30 PM »
This is the example we did in class...



I understood it well then.  I get that E would equal 3 because they all stay put.  With C2 and σv the Hydrogens swap places so the O stays and they are both 1.  With the σv' I think that is the mirror plane so all 3 stay in their places.  The example was pretty simple and I followed it...so I think I understand this somewhat.  The book seems to explain things in a really different way which is not helping me much.  Also being 20 weeks pregnant is making my brain like mush.  lol. 

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 05:35:04 PM »
Ok, I had to take a look at that image on my phone, and it's not particularly easy to see everything that's going on, but you're definitely going about this in a way that's different from the way I learned to do it. The method I'm familiar with uses individual coordinate axes at each atom and then builds an representation from the symmetry transform of the 3N axes, which is then transformed into a sum of irreps. Then the rotational and linear (translational) representations are substracted, leaving 3N-6 vibrational modes. I think this is a rational approach that makes sense to most students.  That said, I'm hesitant to confuse you more by trying to walk you through it, given you're doing it a different way.

Your way seems roughly the reverse of my procedure, but I'll have to wrap my head around the math a bit to convince myself how it's functionally identical. Either way, we can try to do it your way. I have the answer using my way so I know what to work toward. (EDIT: Ok, I did it your way as well and the 3N rep is the same as the one I got, so we're good to go)

Alright, so you need to build a representation for three atoms in linear arrangement using D2h point group. It seems like you know how to do this if you can follow the water example. The long, methodical way is to build transformation matrices for each symmetry operation and then take the character. In practice, to determine the character all you need to look at, especially in this case, is how many atom positions stay the same under each symmetry operation.  Since you have three atoms under consideration, you know the identity operation must have a character of three, because nothing ever changes under the identity operation.  So let's take the next one: C2(z). If the z-axis is defined as the long molecular axis, how many atoms stay in the same position when you rotate around the z-axis by 180 degrees?
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 05:42:35 PM »
Would it be 3N - 5 since it's linear?  Small detail there but it's how I figured out there should be 4 vibrational modes.

Ok if I look at a 180 degree turn around the C2z axis...they would all keep the same position...so 3 again right? 

C2x the axis is perpendicular so the O's would switch places making that a 1....

C2y confuses me a little bit but I think it would also be a 1?


Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2014, 05:43:34 PM »
p.s. Thanks for helping me out here...it's really appreciated especially since there is no supplemental instruction for this course and the professor office hours are during other classes I have. 

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2014, 07:05:35 PM »
Would it be 3N - 5 since it's linear?  Small detail there but it's how I figured out there should be 4 vibrational modes.
In this case, yes. I was speaking generally.

Quote
Ok if I look at a 180 degree turn around the C2z axis...they would all keep the same position...so 3 again right? 

C2x the axis is perpendicular so the O's would switch places making that a 1....

C2y confuses me a little bit but I think it would also be a 1?
Yes. So you learn something here - doing it this way your characters can only be positive numbers or zero. Because it is position only that we are concerned with, the atom is either there (character contribution = 1) or it isn't (character contribution = 0) after the symmetry operation. Since there is no directionality involved, you can't have a negative character here.

How about the other operations?
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2014, 07:46:52 PM »
Ok, so for inversion I guess the O's switch places and C stays the same so that is 1.

The σxy looks like it intersects through the carbon...so is that reflecting both O's and C stays the same? so 1?  The mirrors get confusing to me...

σxz looks like its a mirror parallel to the molecule so 3?

And σyz seems like it would work like xy and end up as a 1.


Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2014, 07:52:18 PM »
I'm assuming I did not get something right there because when I use the character tables to come up with the summations for Ag, B1g.....I am ending up with fractions and not whole numbers..which does not seem correct.

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2014, 09:11:58 PM »
Ok, so for inversion I guess the O's switch places and C stays the same so that is 1.

The σxy looks like it intersects through the carbon...so is that reflecting both O's and C stays the same? so 1?  The mirrors get confusing to me...

σxz looks like its a mirror parallel to the molecule so 3?

And σyz seems like it would work like xy and end up as a 1.
Almost. The σyz is perpendicular to the xz mirror plane, but shares a line of intersection along the z-axis. As such, it contains all three atoms.

So to sum, what have we learned?

The identity operation returns the dimensionality of the problem - in this case 3. Rotational axes return 1 for every atom intersected by the axis, 0 for every other atom - hence 3 for the long molecular axis and 1 for each of the perpendicular axes that intersect the central atom only. An inversion element returns a 1 only for an atom in the center of the molecule. If the center of the molecule is between atoms, the inversion element returns zero. Since there can be at most 1 atom at the center of a molecule, the most this can return is 1. The mirror planes are a little more complicated. The best way is to remember that a plane contains two Cartesian axes. Here we are lucky that the Cartesian axes and rotational axes are identical. So any mirror plane that contains the z-axis must intersect all 3 atoms because all 3 atoms are intersected by the z-axis. Thus both xz and yz = 3. The xy axis only intersect the central atom, so this returns 1.

We have found that your reducible representation is therefore 33111133

What is the reducible representation of your xyz linear transform. This should be pretty easy - look at the example problem you have for water.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 11:24:34 PM by Corribus »
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Offline jensgt

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 01:39:06 PM »
OK wow this is adding up!

So I took the 3 3 1 1 1 1 3 3

my x,y,z based on the character table was:

3 -1 -1 -1 -3 1 1 1

So my 3N is:

9 -3 -1 -1 -3 1 3 3

When I go through and fill out the chart for the mullikan terms...I get:

Ag + B2g + B3g + 2B1u + 2B2u + 2B3u

when I minus out:

x,y,z:  B1u + B2u + B3u

and

Rx, Ry: B2g +B3g

I end up with 4!!!!!

3N-5 = Ag + B1u +B2u + B3u


Eg+, Eu+, and 2 Pi u

as far as which ones are active...

Eu+, and the two Pi u should be because they correlate with the B1u, B2u and B3u which is where the x,y,z appears on character chart.

Sound all good?

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Re: Vibrational Modes for CO2...where am I going wrong?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 03:29:34 PM »
Quote
I end up with 4!!!!!

3N-5 = Ag + B1u +B2u + B3u
All good. Just a few notes here for your benefit:

(1) The reason we don't have 3N-6 in the linear case is because there is no rotation around the long axis, so no Rz.
(2) To show you how these symmetry assignments make some physical sense (otherwise, they are just letters and numbers), we can consider the actual vibrational modes for CO2. Because it is a simple molecule, this is pretty easy. There is a symmetric stretch, an asymmetric stretch, and two mutually perpendicular bending modes.

The symmetric stretch looks like this:

O :rarrow: C :larrow: O and O :larrow: C :rarrow: O

Can you see how this corresponds to the Ag symmetry class? Perform the symmetry operations for the D2h group and see how the Ag representation fits. No matter what symmetry elements you operate with, the direction of the arrows stays the same. It's all 1's. Ag. Note that the Ag representation does not have a linear (x,y, or z) basis, so we predict that the symmetric stretch is not IR active. This agrees with experiment. The symmetric stretch results in no net change in the molecular dipole moment, which is required for IR activity. Also note that the Ag symmetry representation does have a quadratic basis, which predicts the symmetric stretch should be Raman active. This also agrees with experiment. The symmetric stretch results in a change in the polarizability, which is required for a Raman peak to show. (Don't know if you've learned this; if not, ignore.)

The asymmetric stretch looks like this:

O :rarrow: C :rarrow: O and O :larrow: C :larrow: O

This corresponds to the B1u symmetry representation. Can you see why? The symmetry representation is 1 1 -1 -1 -1 -1 1 1. Let's just take two of these as examples. First: the xy mirror plane. If you reflect through this, the arrows change directions, corresponding to a "-1". Second" the xz mirror plane. If you reflect through this, the arrows do NOT change directions, corresponding to a "1". The rest will check out, too - you should look at it and verify that you see this. B1u DOES have a linear basis (z). We predict that the B1u vibrational mode will be IR active. And yes, it turns, out that if you shrink one C=O bond and stretch the other, the dipole moment changes in (surprise!) the z-direction.  You will note that the mode is NOT Raman active. This kind of makes sense - if you shrink one C=O bond and stretch the other, the effective volume of the molecular orbitals doesn't really change that much. Polarizability thus doesn't change, thus this mode is forbidden for the Raman spectrum. (Again, don't worry about this if you haven't talked about Raman.)

That leaves B2u and B3u. These are assigned to the two mutually perpendicular bending modes. These will be harder to represent here with arrows, but it looks something like this for the bend along the x direction (where the plane of your screen in the xz plane):

:spinup: :spindown: :spinup: and :spindown: :spinup: :spindown: where the first, second and third arrows represent the direction of motion for O, C, and O, respectively.

The other one will be identical except the arrows will be coming in and out of the screen, along the yz plane. Both B2u and B3u have a linear bases and are therefore IR active along the y and x directions, respectively. So the one I drew above with arrows is B3u and the one with arrows coming out of the computer screen is B2u. You'll see that the symmetry representations are identical except for the signs corresponding to symmetry operations with only one component in an x or y direction. (That is C2(y) and C2(x) have opposite signs). Try to think about these symmetry operations for these two representations and how they correspond to changes in the directions of the arrows drawn above. This will really help you understand the significance of how group theory representations are assigned to molecular motions during vibrations... and why we use group theory in the first place.

Now one more thing. As your teacher has noted CO2 does not really belong to the D2h point group. It belongs to D∞h. But D2h is easier to use. It's a lower symmetry group, the difference being that we restrict rotation around the z-axis to only a 2-fold rotation, rather than an infinite number of rotations. In practice it doesn't change too much, but we do need to express the vibrational modes in correct symmetry representations. You are lucky here that this is easy because most of your modes have linear bases, so you can simply see where the x,y and z bases are in D∞h and assign them accordingly. The only one that doesn't, as we've mentioned, is Ag, but finding the corresponding representation in the D∞h group is straightforward - there's only one totally symmetric representation.

One important distinction - in D2h, the x and y bases were independent. From a chemical point of view, what this means is that the molecule was assumed to be able to vibrate only along the x or y direction and nothing in between (in a fixed frame). In reality this is not the case. The bending motion can be in any plane that includes the z-axis, and no matter what way the vibration is, the energy is the same. This is why the x,y basis transform together in the D∞h group as a degenerate pair (with an "E" designation). What this basically translates to is that the first excited bending vibration of CO2 is 2-fold degenerate (two states of identical energy differing only in perpendicular dimensionality), and furthermore that there is no true x- or y- axis, at least from the molecular frame of reference. Note that the other two vibrational modes remain single-dimensional with well defined Cartesian directions.

The linear point groups are strange, so don't worry if you're confused. I'm a little surprised your professor used one for your homework.

Quote
Eu+, and the two Pi u should be because they correlate with the B1u, B2u and B3u which is where the x,y,z appears on character chart.
Sound all good?
Almost, B1u (z-basis in D2h) transforms as A1u in D∞h. B2u and B3u transform as the degenerate E1u. Sometimes you'll see this written as Π (and the A's written as Σ, often with +'s and -'s). These are used with term symbols. I'm not sure if you've gotten into that or not. They are handy shorthand (just like the A/B distinction) so you quickly know the parity of the state with respect to specific symmetry operations. This is mostly useful to quickly determine whether certain spectroscopic transitions are allowed or forbidden.

Hope that helps!
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

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