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Topic: Cyclic and acyclic amine  (Read 5461 times)

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Offline Rutherford

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Cyclic and acyclic amine
« on: March 15, 2014, 10:29:00 AM »
Why is the left compound more basic than the right one?

Offline clarkstill

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 12:29:47 PM »
Must be sterics: in quinuclidine the alkyl groups are tied back so the lone pair is more available, so the equilibrium lies slightly more towards the conjugate acid, whereas in triethylamine the alkyl chains have more significant and deleterious steric interactions with the proton...

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 01:08:33 PM »
Okay, so the difference is very small. Thanks.

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 05:49:43 AM »
Why is the left amine more reactive towards MeI than the right one?

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2014, 12:26:53 PM »
Does anyone have any reasonable explanation for this seemingly unexpected result?

Offline kriggy

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2014, 12:37:26 PM »
I think the alkyl groups increase the electron density on the nitrogen in the left compound. In the 2nd compound, the inductive efects are not that strong because of electronegative nitrogen.
Just guess.
What do you mean by more reactive? How much?

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2014, 12:40:18 PM »
Still, there are two nitrogens in the second compound, that's what confuses me. The inductive effect can't be a match to that.

Don't know, I was only asked to put these in order of decreasing reactivity towards MeI (some other amine/s was/were present, too).

Offline kriggy

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2014, 01:19:39 PM »
Maybe the 1st methyl alkylating the nitrogen reduce the reactivity of the 2nd one because of positively charged nitrogen?
Is there a possibility of the results being wrong?

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2014, 01:46:58 PM »
That's a very satisfying answer. Combined with the inductive effect you proposed earlier, it is good.
I think that it shouldn't be wrong, as it is from India National Olympiad and they usually correct the incorrect stuff.

Offline clarkstill

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2014, 01:52:32 PM »
It can only be inductive effects, and I think maybe you're underestimating their strength Rad.  Given that Et3N is ~1.5 pKa units more basic than NH3, each alkyl group contributes ~0.5 pKa units, which corresponds to a 5-fold shift in the equilibrium.  So inductive effects are clearly able to overcome the influence of simply having a second nitrogen (which should only double the rate, to a first approximation).

I realise I am using a thermodynamic metric to try to explain a kinetic behavior, but I think the inductive HOMO-raising effect of hyperconjugation must be noticeably greater in quinuclidine vs DABCO, since the sigma bonds are much more electron-deficient in DABCO.

Either that, or it's some weird solvent effect, in which case god help us.

Offline clarkstill

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2014, 01:53:31 PM »
But this wouldn't decrease the rate of the first methylation...

Maybe the 1st methyl alkylating the nitrogen reduce the reactivity of the 2nd one because of positively charged nitrogen?

Offline Rutherford

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Re: Cyclic and acyclic amine
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2014, 01:57:24 PM »
I think that it is like this: The inductive effect explains the smaller reactiveness of the first nitrogen, then the positive charge (together with the inductive effect) explains the incredibly small reactiveness of the second nitrogen.

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