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Topic: Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry  (Read 15600 times)

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FisherNPC

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Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« on: April 04, 2006, 04:39:27 AM »
Can someone talk anything about Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry?Thank you

Offline Alberto_Kravina

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2006, 08:47:21 AM »
I don´t know if I understood your question, but I think that the calculation of th pH-value of a solution is an example. :)

Offline Albert

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Offline xiankai

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2006, 09:32:56 AM »
and the scary math in thermodynamics...

differential equations, calculus, and so on  :-[
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Offline Borek

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2006, 10:20:41 AM »
Diffusion in electrochemistry is 100% based on differential equations. Concentration changes in time due to kinetics as well.

As for chemistry vs physics - that's not correct question, there is no precise border between both. Is pV=nRT physics or chemistry? Is simulation of NMR spectra chemistry or physics?
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Offline Yggdrasil

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2006, 01:17:43 PM »
Math is extremely important in physical chemistry especially advanced topics such as quantum or statistical mechanics.  Quantum relies heavily on group theory and linear algebra and requires knowledge of mathematical/physical topics such as Hilbert spaces and Hamiltonian operators.  Stat mech relies heavily on probability theory.

Other fields of chemistry also use a significant amount of math.  For example, most modern IR and NMR spectroscopy machines use the Fourier transform to obtain a spectra.  Even biochemistry has important topics which rely heavily on math, such as binding theory and kinetics, and many techniques (e.g. x-ray crystallography, surface plasmon resonance, etc) involve important concepts from physics.

Offline tamim83

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2006, 06:51:43 PM »
Physics is also extremely important in chemistry.  You have to know about physcal concepts like charge, forces, motion, and wave mechanics/quantum theory to study chemistry.  This is why I think that physics should be a prerequisite to chemistry (like general chemistry or high school chemistry).  I think that would be easier than inserting physics lessons into chemistry lessons, we could save a lot of time.  

Offline Alberto_Kravina

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2006, 03:15:58 PM »
The calculation of the refractive index of a liquid is another example. :)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2006, 03:16:17 PM by Alberto_Kravina »

triethanolamine

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2006, 11:39:01 PM »
Oh boy you guys. My BS is in math. A+'s in quantum, stat mech, thermodynamics, etc. Here's the way it really is.

1. Higher mathematics --- abstract algebra, linear function theory ---- have application only if by application is meant application to the trivial and useless calculations of theoretical chemists.

2. The bottom line is the so called laws of physics, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, were made up to explain far simpler phenomena than organic or bio chemistry.

3. The instrumentation which is indespensible to all areas of chemistry is not the result of calculations by chemical physicists. They can sometimes explain spectra, but the instrument that makes the spectra and the correlation of spectra to structure have developed slowly by trial and error.

4. The one indisputable and indespensile application of physics to chemistry is X-ray crystallography.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2006, 12:22:14 AM by triethanolamine »

Offline tamim83

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2006, 09:52:38 AM »
Quote
The bottom line is the so called laws of physics, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, were made up to explain far simpler phenomena than organic or bio chemistry.


True, but that does not mean that they do not explain some of the phennomena in chemistry.  I am not just talking about the very advanced chemistry hear, but some of concepts encountered in introductory chemistry.  I just do not feel that I should have to teach students about electromagnetic radiation to explain atomic line spectra, at least not in as much detail that is in chemistry textbooks.  That should be "prior knowledge" to some extent.  Same with Kinetic molecular theory, I should not have to go into explanations of elastic and inelastic collisions in as much detail if physics was a prerequiste.   Sure, college level is different because we can assume that students had basic physics.  This is not true for high schoolers, where in most places they have bio, then chem. then physics.  We run into the same problems in biology, the students need an understanding of chemistry to understand biological concepts.  Case in point, physics should be taught before any of the other sciences since it explains some of the very basic workings of the world around us.  Physics is indeed a very fundemental science.  

Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2006, 04:54:11 PM »
Math is the language of science - chemistry and physics.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

Offline Mitch

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Re: Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2006, 07:42:11 PM »
Quote
4. The one indisputable and indespensile application of physics to chemistry is X-ray crystallography.

I would of picked NMR.
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Offline Borek

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Re:Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2006, 04:09:03 AM »
2. The bottom line is the so called laws of physics, electromagnetism, quantum mechanics, were made up to explain far simpler phenomena than organic or bio chemistry.

But they obey regardless of the level of complication of the process you are investigating. Protein folding is one of these complicated phenomena - it IS entirely describen by simple laws of physics.

Let me put it this way: there are basic laws of physics that describe whole universe, regardless of whether you speak of your brain cell or a galaxy far, far away (trumpets here). Every other law we use is a kind of emergent properties that can be derived from the very basic interactions mixed with laws of statistic.
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Offline Donaldson Tan

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Re: Application of Mathematics and Physics to Chemistry
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2006, 07:56:27 PM »
Case in point, physics should be taught before any of the other sciences since it explains some of the very basic workings of the world around us. Physics is indeed a very fundemental science.

Actually chemistry and physics describes the world around us in 2 different approach. Physics describes the world by examining how different substance interact (excluding chemical change) with each other, while chemistry describes the world by giving us an idea how different substances are made.
"Say you're in a [chemical] plant and there's a snake on the floor. What are you going to do? Call a consultant? Get a meeting together to talk about which color is the snake? Employees should do one thing: walk over there and you step on the friggin� snake." - Jean-Pierre Garnier, CEO of Glaxosmithkline, June 2006

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