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Topic: Is it possible to create Na from NaCO3?  (Read 33673 times)

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Offline P-man

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Is it possible to create Na from NaCO3?
« on: April 20, 2006, 08:08:47 PM »
Is it possible to create Na from NaCO3? Is it relatively simple and/or doesn't use very complicated unfindable chemicals? If not, can you get NaO relatively easily?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2006, 11:21:02 PM by Mitch »
Pierre.

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Offline Borek

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 08:23:25 PM »
Na2O, Na2CO3.
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Offline pantone159

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 09:32:22 PM »
With sufficient heating, Na2CO3 will decompose to Na2O + CO2.

Offline Alberto_Kravina

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2006, 11:18:14 AM »
Quote
Is it possible to create Na from NaCO3?
You could heat Na2CO3 and then reduce the oxide with hydrogen (Na2O + H2 ---> 2 Na0 + H2O )

Edit: equation balanced
« Last Edit: April 22, 2006, 03:09:45 AM by Alberto_Kravina »

Offline woelen

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2006, 03:10:40 PM »
No, that is not possible. Forget about reduction with hydrogen. It is the other way around. Water reacts violently with sodium metal, giving hydrogen.

P-man, forget about making sodium metal at home. It is ridiculously difficult and insanely dangerous. It can be done, but it requires very good equipment and very good skills, also from a point of view of safety. Only few home chemists can do this safely. I do not count myself as a member of these few home chemists. I would never try to make this at home.

If you really want Na-metal, then first study its properties very well. Think about how you want to store it and how you are going to handle the risks involved. Then look around at some element sellers and see if you can purchase some. But at first I would say. Don't play around with sodium. I myself have done a lot of experiments with extreme chemicals, but I only did one experiment with sodium. It simply is too extreme to work with comfortably.
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Offline niertap

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2006, 01:20:42 PM »
it's fairly easy to electrolyses out of salt, but you need an inert atmosphere. When i did it i was very sad as little blurbs of orange flame shrank and slowly went out. i tried to throw some mineral oil on the salt, but it just lit on fire, gave of horrible smoke, and made a terrible mess. Unless you have a furnace or something hotter or bigger than a propane torch it probably wont work.

Offline P-man

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2006, 07:03:37 PM »
What about NaO?
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Offline Borek

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2006, 07:44:08 PM »
What about NaO?

You were told several times - there is no such compound.
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Offline P-man

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Re: Theoretical Experiments
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2006, 09:04:32 PM »
You were told several times - there is no such compound.

I was?

Anyways I had some very interesting theoretical experiments doing this... and some research was invilved as well. With NaCO3 I tried to find some answers:

NaCO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCO3- (What happens to the HCO3 anion?)

NaCO3 + HCl --> NaOH + Cl + CO2 (I am not at all sure about this one. I had to re-do it a couple of times and I still don't know.)

NaCO3 + H2O2 --> NaCO + H2O (This one I am pleased with, but I'm probably not right.)

Then with CuSO4 I wanted to see if I could isolate the Cu:

CuSO4 + H2SO4--> CuO2 + S2O4 + H2O2 (A lot of guessing work. Not at all sure on this one.)

CuSO4 + 2HCl --> CuCl2 + H2SO4 (This one took a lot of re-doing as well and I have no clue about it.)

CuSO4 + H2O2 --> Cu + H2SO6 (This one I think I might have found my goal, but once again it's scrappy.)

« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 09:54:08 PM by P-man »
Pierre.

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Offline Alberto_Kravina

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2006, 01:58:07 AM »
Quote
NaCO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCO3- (What happens to the HCO3 anion?)
Since sulfuric acid is pretty strong the hydrogen carbonate is protonated to carbonic acid (And carbonic acid decomposes in carbon dioxide and water...)

Quote
NaCO3 + HCl --> NaOH + Cl + CO2 (I am not at all sure about this one. I had to re-do it a couple of times and I still don't know.)
Nope...again, the strong acid HCl protonates the carbonate anion... ?CO2+H2O

Quote
NaCO3 + H2O2 --> NaCO + H2O (This one I am pleased with, but I'm probably not right.)
..I don't think that this reaction happens..

The reactions with copper sulfate: Nothing happens if you add Copper sulfate to sulfuric acid.
The second one seems to be correct, although it's an equilibrium since the formed sulfuric acid re-protonates the chloride anion.

The third one: I doubt that H2SO6 exists....

Offline Borek

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Re: Theoretical Experiments
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2006, 03:09:18 AM »
You were told several times - there is no such compound.

I was?

Yes. Read my FIRST answer in this thread.

Quote
Anyways I had some very interesting theoretical experiments doing this... and some research was invilved as well. With NaCO3 I tried to find some answers:

NaCO3 + H2SO4 --> NaHSO4 + HCO3- (What happens to the HCO3 anion?)

NaCO3 + HCl --> NaOH + Cl + CO2 (I am not at all sure about this one. I had to re-do it a couple of times and I still don't know.)

NaCO3 + H2O2 --> NaCO + H2O (This one I am pleased with, but I'm probably not right.)

All wrong for the reason given above.

Quote
Then with CuSO4 I wanted to see if I could isolate the Cu:

CuSO4 + H2SO4--> CuO2 + S2O4 + H2O2 (A lot of guessing work. Not at all sure on this one.)

CuSO4 + H2O2 --> Cu + H2SO6 (This one I think I might have found my goal, but once again it's scrappy.)

All the time you are trying to guess what the chemistry is all about instead of taking a book and reading. Not every combination of atoms is a stable particle, not every combination of reactants and products is a possible chemical reaction.
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Offline AWK

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2006, 04:24:45 AM »
Concerning NaO-  it is stoichiometric unit of  Na2O2
AWK

Offline pantone159

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Re: Theoretical Experiments
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2006, 01:22:46 PM »
Now, now, no need for profanity, Borek!   :)


Offline P-man

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2006, 07:00:12 PM »
I ACTUALLY DID USE A BOOK TO DO SOME RESEARCH THANK YOU VERY MUCH. I'm still not very advanced. Wait 'till I'm in High School, then I should understand better.

So in the NaCO3 reactions with H2SO4 and HCl the acid is too strong and ends up protonating the carbonate. What does that mean?

Why doesn't the NaCO3 + H2O2 reaction not happen? I read somewhere that H2O2 usually will just give off its extra O atom and become water, so that is what I did...

I am happy that I got one of them almost correct. However, why does CuSO4 not react with H2SO4? Is it because two sulphates cannot react with each other?

H2SO6... I will research that one.

Oh, and thanks Borek, for underlining the fact that not all the time a reaction happens. But right now, I do not have the knowledge of when or not a rection would occur.  That is why I turn to you guys for help.

Thanks everyone,
Pierre.

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Offline woelen

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Re: Na or NaO
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2006, 07:07:56 PM »
NaCO3 does not exist!
H2SO6 does not exist!
NaO does not exist! Na2O2 does exist, but that is something totally different. If you would not want to distinguish between NaO and Na2O2, then you would write hydrogenperoxide as HO. The compound HO, however, also exists, it is called hydroxyl. This is an extremely reactive compound and only exists in a transient state as reaction intermediate or at very strong dilutions where it cannot interact with other molecules (e.g. in interstellar gases).

First read something about number of bonds of atoms and about oxidation states. Then you'll easily understand why these compounds do not exist at all or are extremely unstable.
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