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Topic: principle of emerging properties: water, hydrogen & oxygen  (Read 37269 times)

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Offline Yggdrasil

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2006, 12:51:23 PM »
     the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is still based on the amount of energy in either the system or atom and space, period. a specific water molecule and its position is easier to find if it is frozen ( it has not moved) than a molecule of water of steam.

Common sense doesn't apply when talking about quantum phenomena because we live in a world where quantum effects aren't observable on a macroscopic scale.

Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2006, 10:58:15 PM »

    gentleman

   we can control the position of the of the hydogen atom( break off from the molecule) with the geometry of the electron guns position( and energy of the electrons used). therefore we can know the direction hydrogen atom will go and we can know speed of which the hydogen will leave the molecule. therefore both direction and speed of the hydrogen atom are simultaneously calculable. 

   
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 11:04:14 PM by north »

Offline xiankai

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2006, 06:13:01 AM »
yes, you can calculate both the speed and the direction of a hydrogen atom breaking off from a water molecule at the same time. i do not see any problem with that.
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Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2006, 07:00:30 PM »
yes, you can calculate both the speed and the direction of a hydrogen atom breaking off from a water molecule at the same time. i do not see any problem with that.

   great

   so then an expeiment could be carried out ( not by me since i do not have the facilities or access to the facilities to carry out such an experiment) that we isolate a hydrogen atom, control its position, drop it down to the liquidifcation of hydrogen and see what happens!! is there any other reason that this expeiment could not be carried out.

   it may be neccessary to add 1,2,3.. atoms of hydrogen to get a manifestation of hydrogens liquidity but i hope not,for this would add a complexity i would rather avoid.

   i think, at least for me would be a fascinating and informative experiment. for it would show the mechanism by which lquidity forms. i hope.

  does liquidity form because of the electron and/or of the energy within the space between the electron and proton and/or the magnetic field of the atom its self and any combination thereof. does the spin of the atom have anything to do with the liquidity of hydrogen. if so how so?

   
« Last Edit: May 25, 2006, 07:18:07 PM by north »

Offline Borek

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2006, 07:33:19 PM »
yes, you can calculate both the speed and the direction of a hydrogen atom breaking off from a water molecule at the same time. i do not see any problem with that.

With finite accuracy only.
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Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2006, 07:47:18 PM »
yes, you can calculate both the speed and the direction of a hydrogen atom breaking off from a water molecule at the same time. i do not see any problem with that.

With finite accuracy only.


   so it is possible.

    and i'm assuming it will take some experiments to get the accuracy down pat. and once this is accomplished....

Offline Borek

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2006, 03:55:06 AM »
so it is possible.

and i'm assuming it will take some experiments to get the accuracy down pat. and once this is accomplished....

No, you will not get below Heisenberg uncertainty priniciple.
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Offline xiankai

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2006, 10:26:58 AM »
No, you will not get below Heisenberg uncertainty priniciple.

but he isnt trying to find the velocity at the same time; does that not make the range of accuracy for position increase asymptopically? only limit will be the instruments used i guess.

i think i get what u're driving at; search for Bose-Einstein condensate.

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Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2006, 07:48:57 PM »
No, you will not get below Heisenberg uncertainty priniciple.

but he isnt trying to find the velocity at the same time; does that not make the range of accuracy for position increase asymptopically? only limit will be the instruments used i guess.

i think i get what u're driving at; search for Bose-Einstein condensate.



    the instruments would be the limit.

   lets say you have two chambers( in a pure vaccum), with a hole in the second chamber at the angle at which is calculated to be the angle at which the breaking off the hydrogen atom will move. you know angle and speed therefore you can close the second chamber after a given time. then have an electron gun at the exact angle at which the hydrogen atom will enter the second chamber so that the electron hits the hydrogen atom dead on, but with a cushioning affect on the hydrogen atom(slowing the atom down), then have a multiple electron guns to do the same, three dimensionaly.

   xiankai

   it could be a Bose-Einstein condensate that responsible for liquidity of hydrogen but it could be also something else. that is the fascinating part!!!

  the thing is , is this , we can say how and why liquid hydrogen( and this is just the begining we havn't even touched on oxygen yet( which is liquid at -236C) and then there is molecule of then water, which is liquid at 0C) is, it is because of temp. but if someone asks a deeper question, " and this is because, of what?? we have no answer.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 08:11:11 PM by north »

Offline Will

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2006, 09:15:20 PM »
north, are you talking about a hydrogen ion (H+), a hydrogen atom (H.), or a hydrogen molecule (H2)?

With the data from this theoretical experiment, what results (velocity etc.) would be so ground-breaking? I have a feeling scientists have a good idea what happens to the molecules/atoms when they are liquified.

Melting points are all (I think!) due to intermolecular forces. Its worth having a good read-up on them. ;) I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermolecular_forces useful.

Good Luck! :)

Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2006, 10:14:08 PM »
north, are you talking about a hydrogen ion (H+), a hydrogen atom (H.), or a hydrogen molecule (H2)?

Quote
With the data from this theoretical experiment, what results (velocity etc.) would be so ground-breaking? I have a feeling scientists have a good idea what happens to the molecules/atoms when they are liquified.

   just to be clear. this not so much about the velocity or position of the hydrogen atom( although it is important) but what this experiment is about, is to find the changes that the hydrogen atom itself goes through at extremely low temps. that manifests it liquidification,that is the ultimate point.

 
Quote
Melting points are all (I think!) due to intermolecular forces. Its worth having a good read-up on them. ;) I found http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermolecular_forces useful.

Good Luck! :)

   melting point is an entirely differnet thing.

   otherwise thanks for your response!!


   i know what i propose is hard to wrap ones mind around, but try anyway.


 


   look, ignor for know all complications. just think about this because hydrogen becomes extremely cold it becomes a liquid because why?? explain this beyond just because of temperature. is this not an interesting point of depth of thought!!?? i think so and that is why i propose the experiment that i do.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 10:45:58 PM by north »

Offline xiankai

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2006, 11:33:34 PM »
Definition of Temperature: the measure of average kinetic energy of particles in a substance.

Definition of Liquid: the state at which molecular vibrations/kinetic energy are unable to overcome intermolecular forces to a certain extent, but can still move around abit.

do note that the states of matter have no significance when describing a single atom. the states of matter arise because of the arrangement of the atoms. hence a solid state represents a closely packed arrangement of atoms, and a gaseous state represents atoms randomly moving very fast.

thus when hydrogen becomes cold, it just means that it has lost its energy, and hence cannot overcome intermolecular forces. if you are talking about a lone hydrogen atom, then the conventional states of solid, liquid, gases do not apply to it. you just measure it in terms of how much energy it possesses.
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Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2006, 01:37:23 PM »
Definition of Temperature: the measure of average kinetic energy of particles in a substance.

Definition of Liquid: the state at which molecular vibrations/kinetic energy are unable to overcome intermolecular forces to a certain extent, but can still move around abit.

    agreed

Quote
do note that the states of matter have no significance when describing a single atom. the states of matter arise because of the arrangement of the atoms. hence a solid state represents a closely packed arrangement of atoms, and a gaseous state represents atoms randomly moving very fast.

    agreed

Quote
thus when hydrogen becomes cold, it just means that it has lost its energy, and hence cannot overcome intermolecular forces. if you are talking about a lone hydrogen atom, then the conventional states of solid, liquid, gases do not apply to it. you just measure it in terms of how much energy it possesses.

    fair enough but my point of this experiment is still to see whether this lone atom of hydrogen( at its liquidifaction point -256C) possess any characteristics of a liquid in and of its self, in otherwords a very,very,very mi-nute drop of liquid. if it takes more atoms for the liquid state of hydrogen to show up so be it.( i have mentioned before that this might be necessary) but it would still be interesting to see what happens as we slowly add each atom, one at a time. what changes happen,why.

   if the electons and protons of the atom, hydrogen, don't change in any way, shape or form whether it alone or in a molecule then the liquid form becomes the end result of a state beyond just a collection of atoms in which they themselves have fundamentally not changed.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 02:29:39 AM by geodome »

Offline xiankai

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2006, 10:36:50 PM »
i see your point.

so your "liquid" state of a hydrogen atom is the energy level at which the molecules are in a liquid state. thus when they are brought together, ceteris paribus, they should remain as a liquid.

this is not the case however. you realise that electrons and protons have an electric field surrounding them, due to the fundamental charges that they possess. it is the interactions of conflicting electric fields that lead to the different properties you observe.

also, the fields are not uniform (electrons move constantly, while protons move minutely). therefore 1+1 is not equal to 2 all the time.

with the conflicting changes in electric and thus, magnetic fields, the compound/molecule takes on different properties.

for example, you know that a change in electrical flux will make a change in magnetic flux. a hydrogen atom existing by itself will change its electric field due to the constant motion of its electron. but when u add in 2 more fields (the other hydrogen atom's electron and proton) the electric field will be distorted, will it not? that is why the properties are so different.

all these are more generally known as intermolecular or intramolecular forces, of course. they do not exist in single atoms, that is why single atoms are different from molecules/compounds/etc.
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Offline north

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principle of emerging properties
« Reply #44 on: June 01, 2006, 05:45:44 PM »
i see your point.

Quote
    so your "liquid" state of a hydrogen atom is the energy level at which the molecules are in a liquid state. thus when they are brought together, ceteris paribus, they should remain as a liquid.

  what if though, the original atom of hydrogen is at its "liquid" producing temp.(-256C) or its kinetic energy level that produces a liquid and so are all the introduced atoms added to the original hydrogen atom and that the chamber is a pure vaccum, they should remain a liquid. 

   

Quote
this is not the case however. you realise that electrons and protons have an electric field surrounding them, due to the fundamental charges that they possess. it is the interactions of conflicting electric fields that lead to the different properties you observe.


   true but they still together at the right kinetic energy level or temp. in hydrogen produce a liquid.

   
Quote
also, the fields are not uniform (electrons move constantly, while protons move minutely). therefore 1+1 is not equal to 2 all the time.

with the conflicting changes in electric and thus, magnetic fields, the compound/molecule takes on different properties.

the electric and magnetic fields of ALL the atom(s) would be, for the most part the same, because they are ALL at the same kinetic energy state.(-256C).
 

Quote
for example, you know that a change in electrical flux will make a change in magnetic flux. a hydrogen atom existing by itself will change its electric field due to the constant motion of its electron. but when u add in 2 more fields (the other hydrogen atom's electron and proton) the electric field will be distorted, will it not? that is why the properties are so different.

    true adding an atom to another atom will initally have its affects not only the other(s) but also upon its self. however given the time at the right kinetic energy these inital affects will settle down, so that the molecule built will in time show a liquid property as a whole.


Quote
all these are more generally known as intermolecular or intramolecular forces, of course. they do not exist in single atoms, that is why single atoms are different from molecules/compounds/etc.

   agreed

    but i what i was driving at before is this,  it maybe possible that one atom has within its self the ability to be a self sufficient atom to to speak, if brought down to the right kinetic energy level and if ALL subseqent atoms were at the SAME kinetic energy level as the first, then all you'd be doing is adding to the molecule until it reached a critical mass, in which, what we call a liquid, shows its self.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 02:31:33 AM by geodome »

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