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Offline Cc1127

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Key Lime and Energy Levels
« on: December 29, 2016, 02:13:17 PM »
Hi, I recently conducted a science fair experiment where I hypothesized that consuming key limes can increase energy levels. I used an electricity conductivity machine with electrodes being placed in a key lime solution to support my claim. The key lime juice did conduct electricity. There hasn't been any research that I could find that could directly support my claim. However, since I have advanced to the next round I had to find up some type of information that could help me advance my research. Also my judge from Georgia Tech said that I was on the right track and that I should try to redirect my claim toward something that related to how our body uses electricity and how consuming key limes would have an effect on that(if that makes sense). I agreed and took her advice. The other judge suggested that I research electrolysis and I did. The info on electrolysis helped me significantly however I was still missing something. I still needed (and still need to) know if I can prove that key limes can increase energy levels within the body. So I researched some info about how ions (which I know key limes have) are used in our body. Ions generate electricity and our body uses electricity to do everything right? Electricity is used to send signals throughout our body from out brain telling us what to do right? So if key limes can conduct electricity that our body needs to function, wouldn't consuming them have some type of impact on our overall "energy" level? And I quote energy because one of my judges from Georgia Tech pointed out that when I use the term energy in relation to our body, people coorilate that to "feeling" energized. Not to say that people wouldn't feel energized if the consume key limes, but just because you consume something that is supposed to increase your energy level and you don't "feel" energized doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't being energized right (Just because you can't "feel" the energy that's supposed to come to you from whatever you're consuming doesn't mean that it's not there, to clarify)? Or is it that the state of being "energized" can have some type of placebo effect (ex. You hear that if you eat a green apple two times a day you will have more energy than drinking 3 cups of coffee. So because you believe it you "feel" like it's working)? Thank you in advance.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 04:41:12 PM by Cc1127 »

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2016, 03:33:52 PM »
I hope I'm making some type of sense and I'm not just rambling. Thank you in advance.

Please simplify and explain more of the terms better.

Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 03:45:50 PM »
Also, please trouble yourself to review our forum rules.  http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=65859.0
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Corribus

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2016, 12:22:45 PM »
You lost me at your first sentence. The first thing you have to learn about forming hypotheses is that they need to be specific and use well-defined terms that are unambiguously measurable. For instance, what do you mean by "energy levels" and how would you go about measuring them?
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline Cc1127

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2016, 12:50:06 PM »
If I lost you at the first sentence I can only assume that you didn't read what I typed in its entirety. I did address in further detail what I meant by energy levels in further detail towards the end of what I typed. It could be the actual "feeling" of being energized. I'm sorry if me using the terms energy levels was ambiguous however, I thought that energy levels was something that was understood. There is no complex meaning behind what I'm saying. It's exactly what I stated. Energy levels. I don't even know how to specify that because there are multiple articles that go on to explain how you can increase your "energy level" in whatever way they have found. I'm not really sure what you want me to say. This could possibly impact human voltage. That's about the only thing I can think of.

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2016, 01:01:51 PM »
I asked you to explain better, and more completely.  And so did Corribus:.  I asked you to read our forum rules.  Let me re-write some of them for you.

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3.5. Avoid the wall-of-text.
If your post is long, break up the text with paragraph spaces. Monolithic blocks of text will put off would-be helpers.

This is a consensus reached with MOD:'s: and ADMIN:'s.  The wall of text isn't a good way to communicate online.

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don't post crackpottery,

Try splitting up your post into clear scientific concepts.  You will have to support the feeling of energy levels in some way, and not just say we have to Google.  Many of your statements are just plain false, and I see no need to validate them and allow them to confuse students trying to learn.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 02:31:30 PM by Arkcon »
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Cc1127

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2016, 01:03:51 PM »
"The first thing you have to learn about forming hypotheses is that they need to be specific and use well-defined terms that are unambiguously measurable."
This makes a lot of since by the way. I understand what you are saying by making it more measurable. However, if that's the case, (not challenging you) then how do other researchers prove that things such as oatmeal, almonds, and quiona are some of the best things to give you energy? I would really like to know that. Oh and for the second round of my experimentation I was going to use different variables such as varied key lime juice concentration and an electric gauge to measure the amount of electricity in the key lime solution to make it more measurable in that sense.

Offline Cc1127

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2016, 01:24:43 PM »
"You will have to support the feeling of energy levels in some way, and not just say we have to Google.  Many of your statements are just plain false, and I see no need to validate them and allow them to confuse students trying to learn."
If many of my statements are "plain false" please point them out instead of just simply pointing out that they are "false". I feel that would be a much more effective way of communication that allows for growth on my end. And the fact that you said you see no need to validate my seemingly false statements and allow them to confuse "students trying to learn" is not very supportive, being that I am student trying to learn. I would also like to change my post format to the one that is suggested but I cant find where to modify my original post.

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2016, 02:09:28 PM »
Hi, I recently conducted a science fair experiment where I hypothesized that consuming key limes can increase energy levels.

You will have to define energy levels better.  What is the starting level?  What is the ending level?  How did you measure the difference?  I suspect this is crackpttery on the face of it, and that you can't, and so you won't.  Start here with an empirical explanation.

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I used an electricity conductivity machine with electrodes being placed in a key lime solution to support my claim.

Kindly reference a textbook or peer-reviewed source that equates human nutrition to electrical conductivity.  If you can't, please withdraw this statement, and do not use it as support again, until you can.

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The key lime juice did conduct electricity. There hasn't been any research that I could find that could directly support my claim.


Do you know how conductivity works?  Do other things conduct?  Does you logic always follow from your observations?  Dose salt water conduct?  Does copper wire conduct?  Do they, empirically, increase human energy levels?

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However, since I have advanced to the next round I had to find up some type of information that could help me advance my research.


OK.  This is clear.  You buried in the "wall of text" and that made it hard to find.  You should do what I suggested, and reorganize text: start with what you can prove, and what you need help with.

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Also my judge from Georgia Tech said that I was on the right track and that I should try to redirect my claim toward something that related to how our body uses electricity and how consuming key limes would have an effect on that(if that makes sense).


This is a good start to a question.

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I agreed and took her advice. The other judge suggested that I research electrolysis and I did. The info on electrolysis helped me significantly however I was still missing something.

OK.  What did you learn, and what seems to be missing?  What meshes with what you already know, and what doesn't?  How do you know, "Something is missing?"  What ... hole ... did you see, in what you know?  What was the significant help?  These are things we need to know, so we can help.  As written, this bit just restates your initial problem.  You see, your wall of text tricked even yourself -- you said the same thing, but less clearly, and didn't even know it.  You just added the buzzword -- electrolysis.  You could have, instead, just asked, "Electrolysis, how does this relate to nutritional energy levels?"

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I still needed (and still need to) know if I can prove that key limes can increase energy levels within the body.


Another line, that says the same thing again.  If you had tried to break your missive, into individual statements -- an outline, like I just did, you would have noticed you're doing this.

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So I researched some info about how ions (which I know key limes have) are used in our body.

Just to remind you again -- only key limes exclusively?

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Ions generate electricity and our body uses electricity to do everything right?


Quote
Electricity is used to send signals throughout our body from out brain telling us what to do right? So if key limes can conduct electricity that our body needs to function,

Quote
wouldn't consuming them have some type of impact on our overall "energy" level?

No.  These statements are each one false.  Buried in your wall of text, I can't tell you your missive is wrong, but these facts, and statements that depend on them are wrong.  Did you bury them inside your wall of text to try to hide them from us?  So that we can't refute your whole missive based on them?  Do you like these statements, spelled out, as they are, by me?   If not, maybe you don't want to use them at all.

This is why the wall of text isn't a proper way to communicate.  And if you don't communicate clearly, we can't begin to help.  I said begin, we have even more work to do understanding you.

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And I quote energy because one of my judges from Georgia Tech pointed out that when I use the term energy in relation to our body, people coorilate that to "feeling" energized. Not to say that people wouldn't feel energized if the consume key limes, but just because you consume something that is supposed to increase your energy level and you don't "feel" energized doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't being energized right (Just because you can't "feel" the energy that's supposed to come to you from whatever you're consuming doesn't mean that it's not there, to clarify)? Or is it that the state of being "energized" can have some type of placebo effect (ex. You hear that if you eat a green apple two times a day you will have more energy than drinking 3 cups of coffee. So because you believe it you "feel" like it's working)? Thank you in advance.

Sorry.  I'm tired of picking your statements apart.  You have to realize that many people give up sooner.  Your statements here are very non-empirical.  I can't "measure" them, so I can't tell when you're getting close.  You've got to read what "empirical" means, and try to ask questions in that way.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 02:32:58 PM by Arkcon »
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Cc1127

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2016, 03:06:28 PM »
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Hi, I recently conducted a science fair experiment where I hypothesized that consuming key limes can increase energy levels.
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You will have to define energy levels better.  What is the starting level?  What is the ending level?  How did you measure the difference?  I suspect this is crackpttery on the face of it, and that you can't, and so you won't.  Start here with an empirical explanation.

Energy in my project would be the complete opposite feeling or state of fatigue.

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I used an electricity conductivity machine with electrodes being placed in a key lime solution to support my claim.
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Kindly reference a textbook or peer-reviewed source that equates human nutrition to electrical conductivity.  If you can't, please withdraw this statement, and do not use it as support again, until you can.

I took your advice and tried to find a source that equates human nutrition to electrical conductivity. I came across the book titled, "Electrical Nutrition: A Revolutionary Approach to Eating That Awakens the Body's Electrical Energy". It seems to me, based on the blurb, that this book contains information that could possibly support my claim and I will likely purchase it.

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The key lime juice did conduct electricity. There hasn't been any research that I could find that could directly support my claim.
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Du you know how conductivity works?  Do other things conduct?  Does you logic always follow from your observations?  Dose salt water conduct?  Does copper wire conduct?  Do they, empirically, increase human energy levels?

Indeed I do know how conductivity works. Other things do conduct electricity of course. I am very aware that saltwater conducts electricity because saltwater has ions. Just as key limes and lemons do. However, I choose not to base my project on saltwater because what intelligent human in their right mind would consume saltwater for any reason knowing that there is a risk of dehydration and potentially death? That, is just dumb. And i did not use lemons because they contain slightly more sugar than a key lime and I wanted to use the citrus fruit with the least amount of sugar.

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However, since I have advanced to the next round I had to find up some type of information that could help me advance my research.
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OK.  This is clear.  You buried in the "wall of text" and that made it hard to find.  You should do what I suggested, and reorganize text: start with what you can prove, and what you need help with.

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Also my judge from Georgia Tech said that I was on the right track and that I should try to redirect my claim toward something that related to how our body uses electricity and how consuming key limes would have an effect on that(if that makes sense).
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This is a good start to a question.

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I agreed and took her advice. The other judge suggested that I research electrolysis and I did. The info on electrolysis helped me significantly however I was still missing something.
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OK.  What did you learn, and what seems to be missing?  What meshes with what you already know, and what doesn't?  How do you know, "Something is missing?"  What ... hole ... did you see, in what you know?  What was the significant help?  These are things we need to know, so we can help.  As written, this bit just restates your initial problem.  You see, your wall of text tricked even yourself -- you said the same thing, but less clearly, and didn't even know it.  You just added the buzzword -- electrolysis.  You could have, instead, just asked, "Electrolysis, how does this relate to nutritional energy levels?"

I learned about what electrolysis had to do with my project (because we do not learn about electrolysis in high school). I learned about how I was using electrolysis when I built and used my conductivity machine. I learned what the different components of the machine were (Electrodes (Aluminum electrodes to be specific), Energy source (Battery), Solution (Containing ions if you want to produce electricity). And my intention was not to merely restate the same thing that I said before and add a "buzzword". You said that I could have just asked the question you stated, but I didn't even think of that question because I was very confused about what question to even ask after I learned about electrolysis. Do keep in mind that I am doing this on my own and I came to this forum to listen to others to stimulate some thoughts. That is indeed where I felt I was "missing something". Missing a question to ask to further my research.

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I still needed (and still need to) know if I can prove that key limes can increase energy levels within the body.
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Another line, that says the same thing again.  If you had tried to break your missive, into individual statements -- an outline, like I just did, you would have noticed you're doing this.

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So I researched some info about how ions (which I know key limes have) are used in our body.
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Just to remind you again -- only key limes exclusively?

Not key limes exclusively, however the focus is on key limes in my project because they have less sugar content than many other suggested fruits. And sugar content plays a huge role in the entire purpose of my project). I wanted to find something that would increase energy levels that didn't contain large sums of sugar, such as a frappuccino from Starbucks.

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Ions generate electricity and our body uses electricity to do everything right?

Electricity is used to send signals throughout our body from out brain telling us what to do right? So if key limes can conduct electricity that our body needs to function,

wouldn't consuming them have some type of impact on our overall "energy" level?

Quote
No.  These statements are each one false.  Buried in your wall of text, I can't tell you your missive is wrong, but these facts, and statements that depend on them are wrong.  Did you bury them inside your wall of text to try to hide them from us?  So that we can't refute your whole missive based on them?  Do you like these statement, spelled out, as they are, by me?   If not, maybe you don't want to use them at all.

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This is why the wall of text isn't a proper way to communicate.  And if you don't communicate clearly, we can't begin to help.  I said begin, we have even more work to do understanding you.

You're right. If I read some of what I typed I would have a similar opinion to yours. But what I should clarify is when I said our body uses electricity for "everything" I was talking about our brain using electricity to send signals to the rest of our body. Blindly referring the sodium-potassium gate.

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And I quote energy because one of my judges from Georgia Tech pointed out that when I use the term energy in relation to our body, people coorilate that to "feeling" energized. Not to say that people wouldn't feel energized if the consume key limes, but just because you consume something that is supposed to increase your energy level and you don't "feel" energized doesn't necessarily mean that you aren't being energized right (Just because you can't "feel" the energy that's supposed to come to you from whatever you're consuming doesn't mean that it's not there, to clarify)? Or is it that the state of being "energized" can have some type of placebo effect (ex. You hear that if you eat a green apple two times a day you will have more energy than drinking 3 cups of coffee. So because you believe it you "feel" like it's working)? Thank you in advance.
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Sorry.  I'm tired of picking your statements apart.  You have to realize that many people give up sooner.  Your statements here are very non-empirical.  I can't "measure" them, so I can't tell when you're getting close.  You've got to read what "empirical" means, and try to ask questions in that way.

Thank you for picking my statements apart. It has helped me understand how to better explain the questions I'm asking and what type of information I should include to help people help me.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 07:30:21 AM by Arkcon »

Offline Arkcon

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 04:41:45 PM »
And thank you for realizing that there's a different way to communicate the questions you have.  This is in fact a pretty good lesson for the next student now.  Try to work on the question some more, and ask it again in a different way.
Hey, I'm not judging.  I just like to shoot straight.  I'm a man of science.

Offline Cc1127

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 04:49:44 PM »
Actually since I've replied to you I've decided to go about my project in a somewhat different way. I decided to break down the components of key limes. Then research which vitamins, minerals, or electrolytes can have an impact on energy.  Asking if a key lime contains electrolytes. And if so, which ones? If it contains vitamins or minerals, which ones? Does a key lime have any of the  vitamins, minerals or electrolytes that impacts energy in the body? If so how can you use this to support your claim and better your project? These are all questions that I have asked myself since and these are the questions I was looking for but couldn't seem to think of. And for that, I credit you. Thank you.

Offline Corribus

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2016, 03:08:58 PM »
"The first thing you have to learn about forming hypotheses is that they need to be specific and use well-defined terms that are unambiguously measurable."
This makes a lot of since by the way. I understand what you are saying by making it more measurable. However, if that's the case, (not challenging you) then how do other researchers prove that things such as oatmeal, almonds, and quiona are some of the best things to give you energy? I would really like to know that. Oh and for the second round of my experimentation I was going to use different variables such as varied key lime juice concentration and an electric gauge to measure the amount of electricity in the key lime solution to make it more measurable in that sense.
This seems like it may be a lost cause, but I'll bite anyway. You ask how other researchers prove that things such as oatmeal (etc) are "some of the best things to give you energy"? First of all, this is not a scientific statement, and no serious scientist would say it. This might be an industry marketing interpretation of some actual scientific research, but you should go to the primary scientific literature source to find out what an actual research finding about this topic was, in which case the basis of such a conclusion would be explicitly provided, rendering your question unnecessary here. Second, this sounds more like a human perception of energy thing than an actual scientific energy concept.  Consider the following thought experiment. Take two identical people - one of them is up all night drinking and partying, and the second goes to bed a reasonable hour. The next morning you ask both of them to rate their "energy level" on a scale of 1:10, 10 being the highest.  I'd wager the second person would have a higher personal evaluation of their energy level. In some sense a scientific experiment and hypothesis could be designed around the effect of partying or drinking on the so-called "energy level" a person has the next day. But the energy level referred to is strictly a perception concept and doesn't rate (directly, anyway) to anything overtly chemical. This is, essentially, what I meant when I said you need to be very specific about what you're measuring. (To be clear, this kind of research is totally legitimate, but it's more in the psychological realm than any physical science. We see these things a lot in food perception research.)
What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were like a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent?  - Richard P. Feynman

Offline Irlanur

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2017, 04:44:10 AM »
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Actually since I've replied to you I've decided to go about my project in a somewhat different way. I decided to break down the components of key limes. Then research which vitamins, minerals, or electrolytes can have an impact on energy.  Asking if a key lime contains electrolytes. And if so, which ones? If it contains vitamins or minerals, which ones? Does a key lime have any of the  vitamins, minerals or electrolytes that impacts energy in the body? If so how can you use this to support your claim and better your project? These are all questions that I have asked myself since and these are the questions I was looking for but couldn't seem to think of. And for that, I credit you. Thank you.

This already looks much better than the first post. BUT: It was already mentioned, but to make it absolutely clear: The "Energy" you are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with the physical meaning of energy. What you mean is a vague description of a human feeling, related to motivation, awareness, not being tired etc. It is definitely not measurable in a way we do it in chemistry and physics. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is not important, feeling motivated and energized is a big part of the quality of living, but it is extremely subjective and you will never be able to put a hard number on it.   

Offline Cc1127

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Re: Key Lime and Energy Levels
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2017, 10:14:52 AM »
I wouldn't say it has "absolutely nothing" to do with the physical definition of energy. Energy: the strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity. See there, physical or mental vitality. So now I know my research has some coorilation to the definition because feeling enrgized can be mental. Now don't get me wrong, I agree with you and everyone here that the feeling that I'm speaking of is subjective, but I just wouldn't say that it has absolutely nothing to do with the physical definition of energy. That's an entire argument that I could make but I just want to get to the point because that's irrelevant to the stage that I'm at in my project right now.  I would just like to say that although the energy that I speak of is not measurable, key limes do have many properties that are vital to bodily energy production. Such as Phosphorus and Magnesium, both needed for ATP production. Key limes also have the electrolytes Magnesium and Potassium which both become ions in the solution. And this is absolutely a chemical process. So i understand what you are saying appreciate you reiterating what everyone else said. But thanks to all of you that helped me, i will definitely not get in front of a judge or anyone else and not be able to justify or support any of my claims.

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