[louislitt]

Hi all,

I have a question regarding the mixing of Nicotine in a PG/VG solution (yes vaping related) which is hopefully simple and has not been addressed directly in this forum.

I had a self-proclaimed biochemist state that the mixing of Nicotine with Propylene Glycol (PG) and/or Vegetable Glycerin (VG) can not be done correctly outside a laboratory / commercial setting regardless if the mixture is vigorously stirred or shaken for a few hours, heated or any combination of the two because of some sort of molecular 'limitation' (sorry I'm not a chemist and I don't know exactly how these things work or the right terms to use)

My question is simply if there is any truth to his claim as I wonder if there any reason why one could not use say - a magnetic stirrer and simply pour the ingredients together and mix on high or even low rpm at room temperature? If this would not work - how would a manufacture achieve a better mixing of ingredients? Is there something specific about those ingredients that would make it difficult for someone at home to achieve a satisfactory mix?

Also with the above in mind - even if there is some truth to what the biochemist has said - does it even matter if they are mixed 'on a molecular level' providing the nicotine is suspended in the solution evenly enough? The solution is simply going to be vaporised and inhaled anyway?

There are many many guides and forum posts on how DIY'ers create their own solutions - so I doesn't really seem plausible that it cannot be done at home.

thanks for your time all.

Lou

edit: I should note. the biochemist in question does have a vested interested as his company sells e-liquids for vaping.

[Arkcon]

Briefly, we don't give out recipes for self-medication for any reason on this board.  Let's get that out of the way first.  So you won't get the specifics on this board.  Read our rules.  You already accepted them when you signed up for our forum, so they apply to you.  Forum Rules{click}

Now:  for your theoretical questions.  We're glad to help you learn.  Nicotine can be hard to dissolve ... in water.  The standard vaping solutions should be very good solvents for nicotine.

What the biochemist is probably trying to say is that, treated like a pharmaceutical, vaping solution is difficult to make, to the level of quality a pharmaceutical manufacturer is held to in every country on this planet.  Careful sourcing of raw materials, careful formulation, careful determination post-formulation for quality, consistent levels of active, for the lack of contamination -- chemical and microbiological, careful determination of the safety of the containers, long term stability, and the cross-checked documentation of all of these is what a manufacturer provides.  And charges you for.  In addition to their profits, of course.

I make great cakes.  I mean really good cakes.  I bring them to work and people fight over them.  My obese relatives say my cakes are so good that I have to stop making them because they are too good.  I'm not allowed to sell them.  There's nothing wrong with them.  But my kitchen is not a bakery.

[Borek]

because of some sort of molecular 'limitation'

If there is any sort of 'molecular limitation' (like, say, solubility) it concerns everyone involved, be it in industrial environment or home lab, they can't change it. What they can do, is they can use some additives that will modify properties of the system - technically you can use them as well, so whole process shoudlbe reproducible

Arkcon is definitely right that it is difficult to maintain proper quality without a lot of additional knowledge and instruments.

[louislitt]

Thank you both Arkcon & Borek for your replies.

First off, Arkon I apologise - it was not my intention at all to break any of the forum rules. I'm assuming you are referring to the line, "Due to their potential health hazards, we will also not help you prepare your own medicines or cosmetics.. My question was one of curiosity and not intended to produce some sort of guide or map for preparation of medicines. Having said this, I'll admit it could be easily read this way.

The message form the Biochemist was not to do with Quality Management/Control (I work in QC for a ISO manufacturer of medical equipment). The message I received is that individuals without the industrial tools & knowhow could not sufficiently combine the said ingredients together. I was surprised at this because I've worked with plastics and can see why a strong solvent would be required in that scenario, but Nicotine doesn't seem particularly difficult to dissolve requiring special equipment or a strong solvent.

So I can assume from your post there is nothing particularly special about the properties of nicotine that would hinder its solubility in PG/VG?

Is there a source where I can learn more about the solubility of different combinations of materials/chemicals or calucations? Are there any 'rule of thumbs' that apply?

Thank you all.
Lou

[Borek]

Is there a source where I can learn more about the solubility of different combinations of materials/chemicals or calucations? Are there any 'rule of thumbs' that apply?

The only rule of thumb here is that "like dissolves like" - polar molecules are easier to dissolve in polar solvents, non-polar molecules in non-polar solvents. Trick is, polarity is not well defined, it is in a way rule of thumb of its own.

There are some numerical methods that are sometimes used to predict solubilities, but they are not much better than this very basic rule of thumb.

Other than that the only way of checking is to measure the solubility experimentally. Almost every database of properties of chemical compounds has some information on solubility. Decent ones require paid access (but even these are not guaranteed to contain every kind of data you may need).

[louislitt]

Thank you Borek,

Looks like I have some reading to do.

Many thanks,
Lou

[louislitt]

Is there a source where I can learn more about the solubility of different combinations of materials/chemicals or calucations? Are there any 'rule of thumbs' that apply?

The only rule of thumb here is that "like dissolves like" - polar molecules are easier to dissolve in polar solvents, non-polar molecules in non-polar solvents. Trick is, polarity is not well defined, it is in a way rule of thumb of its own.

There are some numerical methods that are sometimes used to predict solubilities, but they are not much better than this very basic rule of thumb.

Other than that the only way of checking is to measure the solubility experimentally. Almost every database of properties of chemical compounds has some information on solubility. Decent ones require paid access (but even these are not guaranteed to contain every kind of data you may need).

Borek,

With the rule of thumb in mind I've been reading a bit more regarding the polarity and it appears that PG has a dielectric constant of 24 or so? Would this be considered a non-polar solvent? Nicotine in itself appears to be non-polar but I have not been able to find its dielectric constant.

Any help?

thanks,

Lou

Edit: I took some figures out of context.

[silverz89]

It is fair to say that homogenizing (whether we are talking about miscibility or solubility) a nicotine/PG/VG mixture has its challenges. Particularly due to the viscosity of the VG and the oxidation sensitivity of the nicotine even at moderate temperatures. Adding flavoring or sweetener compounds only complicates this further.

It can be hard to tell if you have achieved nicotine solvation since it is a liquid with similar fluid properties to PG. but theoretically speaking, PG and Glycerol are both alcohols in which nicotine (which is not typically considered to be strongly polar, but does have a di-pole moment) can dissolve. achieving the correct conditions to do this in a DIY environment without degrading the nicotine or flavoring components of the mixture is what will give you trouble and that well known "peppery" taste reported by vapers when sampling mixtures containing nicotine oxides.

to respond to your other question regarding efficacy of a solution vs a suspension, nicotine suspensions are going to give you a pretty similar "end result" compared with a nicotine solution, assuming you mix it really thoroughly. Though I do not know at all how much bio availability data has been collected comparing the two. Considering the FDA does not regulate the industry anywhere near to the standards with which it regulates pharmaceutical manufacturing, I would say that the bio availability, degree of solvation, reported nicotine concentration of the mixtures and even the general safety of the e liquid etc varies wildly from maker to maker, be they "legit," DIY or otherwise. If an e liquid manufacturer doesn't sell DIY kits/ supplies and you cannot verify their credentials as a Biology or Chemistry degree holder, it is likely they are spinning something to try to protect their sales. If they do sell DIY kits, and are still telling you this, its probably because they know that after years of R&D that the quality of what products they are making in the lab is better quality than what you can make at home.

Disclaimer: I have consulted for e liquid companies, some that offer and some that do not offer DIY products.

[louislitt]

silverz89,

Thank you very much for adding your points on this matter.  What I took from your post is that It would appear the mixer's own expertise has more to do with the final solution/suspension's intended quality and it's not really a matter of nicotine solubility in PG/VG in itself that is the issue.

Thanks
Lou.