December 11, 2019, 09:59:35 AM
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Topic: Electrolysis of NaHCO3  (Read 3173 times)

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Offline Shannon Dove

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Re: Electrolysis of NaHCO3
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2019, 11:57:16 PM »
Hanzdolo, I do not have any experience with it, but from what I have read, using a silent electric arc like the kind used for making ozone, does have the potential to be an extremely valuable tool for the at home chemists. For example, starting with methane, a lot of interesting compounds can be made. If I recall correctly, spraying some organic compounds in a fine mist in hydrogen gss with the silent arc make the same stuff as subjecting it to a Burch reduction.
This beauty of this method is it's an arc without the tremendous heat that would otherwise destroy the compound

Offline hanzdolo

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Re: Electrolysis of NaHCO3
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2019, 04:55:25 AM »
I don't know a simple book on electrochemistry. The topic itself is tricky, and I'm by no means an expert.

Do you know of any books that are complex on the topic?

Offline hanzdolo

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Re: Electrolysis of NaHCO3
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 07:28:04 AM »
Hanzdolo, I do not have any experience with it, but from what I have read, using a silent electric arc like the kind used for making ozone, does have the potential to be an extremely valuable tool for the at home chemists. For example, starting with methane, a lot of interesting compounds can be made. If I recall correctly, spraying some organic compounds in a fine mist in hydrogen gss with the silent arc make the same stuff as subjecting it to a Burch reduction.
This beauty of this method is it's an arc without the tremendous heat that would otherwise destroy the compound

Oh that's got my tail wagging,  ;D, I thought it would be possible to ionize any gaseous compound using an electric field.

Wait a minute..Birch reduction, you talking making the amine group from the elemental nitrogen and reducing without lithium or sodium present?

I'm planning to make the electric field gas ionizer using a method to ionize air enough to produce substantial amounts of Ozone or NO2 to produce H2O2 or Nitric Acid

In the presence of UV light:
H2O + O3  :rarrow: H2O2 +O2(g)

2NO2 + H2O2 :rarrow: 2HNO3


Offline Shannon Dove

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Re: Electrolysis of NaHCO3
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 01:22:47 PM »
I read that when benzene vapor or mist is subject to silent electric arc in hydrogen, it made 1,4 cyclohexadiene,....and that compound is also made by the Burch reduction ,...I think but I'm not sure, I lost my notes on it.
As for nitrogen oxides, the good news is both cold and hot arcs can make that😁
I am also interested in experiment with a hot electric arc under water, so in a very small spot the arc is thousands of degrees, but the container of water can be kept cool and sit on a table inside. So if you make a slurry of gypsum and fine sand, and vigorously stir this in the water with the hot electric arc, as the particles pass into the arc, the calcium reacts with the sand the form calcium silicate and sets the sulfate free to form sulfuric acid. In other words, heating calcium sulfate with silicon dioxide makes sulfuric acid,...and my idea is to do it in a cool cup of water without a messy, noisy, electric furnace that has to be used outside.

Offline hanzdolo

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Re: Electrolysis of NaHCO3
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2019, 07:18:30 PM »
I read that when benzene vapor or mist is subject to silent electric arc in hydrogen, it made 1,4 cyclohexadiene,....and that compound is also made by the Burch reduction ,...I think but I'm not sure, I lost my notes on it.
As for nitrogen oxides, the good news is both cold and hot arcs can make that😁
I am also interested in experiment with a hot electric arc under water, so in a very small spot the arc is thousands of degrees, but the container of water can be kept cool and sit on a table inside. So if you make a slurry of gypsum and fine sand, and vigorously stir this in the water with the hot electric arc, as the particles pass into the arc, the calcium reacts with the sand the form calcium silicate and sets the sulfate free to form sulfuric acid. In other words, heating calcium sulfate with silicon dioxide makes sulfuric acid,...and my idea is to do it in a cool cup of water without a messy, noisy, electric furnace that has to be used outside.

The arc will boil the water at some point so it'll have to be jacketed to keep the solution cool, but the idea overall is awesomeness. That's what I was talking about when I initially mentioned arc ionization, aqueous. I had no idea you could produce sulfuric acid that way though.

You completely gave me the idea make the gas ionizer. I thought about the usefulness of having an H2O2 and HNO3 generator, but the cold arc reactions sound interesting. The presence of oxygen during some of those reactions is quite explosive though.

I was thinking to make a small induction burner so that I can place a steel cylinder on top of a bed of fiberglass fabric( as a heat insulator) inside of a flask then fill it with MgSO4 to distill the SO3 from it. The reaction with water is violent but from what I understand it forms a fine mist of sulfuric acid which is good to start with.

Whenever I come up with a new process, I like to make the reagent without having to have a prior amount. Like electrochemical Sulfuric Acid synthesis, I have to start with high voltages because I'm using plain water which is why I'm finding that I have to design a buck converter that can supply up to 170VDC, gradually reducing voltage as it detects a greater current flow (high ec/lower resistance), indicating the presence of SO4-.

I've notice that during sulfuric acid synthesis if I don't add basic sodium to the reduction half cell, it doesn't like to release the anion. Once I do, the current rises rapidly and when I add more anhydrous MgSO4 once I see it's nearly consumed and has become Mg(OH)2 it immediately begins reacting forming magnesia and greatly increasing current flow.
Do you know why this is?

Offline hanzdolo

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Re: Electrolysis of NaHCO3
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2019, 10:57:50 AM »
I don't know how to quote text, but hanzdolo, I am very interested in your work. Tell me your opinion about this idea,... In a divided compartment cell, I used salt water in both compartments, then added some bone Ash to the anode compartment, as it got acid enough, the bone edge finally dissolved, I was hoping topull the calcium and sodium ions out of the anode compartment to make hydrochloric and phosphoric acid. What is your thoughts on this idea?

Due to some recent experiments I'm able answer this more intelligently. I just figured something out and decided to share the info with you.

1. Start the cell with NaCl at the cathode and bone ash (CaPO4) at the anode.
2. Apply current to a PbO2 anode/copper foil cathode of 3.5A, Potential of at least 6V
3. HClO4 will evolve at the anode and react with the bone ash to give H2PO4 and CaClO4 respectively
4. Distill any remaining HClO4 via fractionation.
5. Boil down H2PO4 until it has reached its azeotrope and filter CaClO4

That's a process that I just came up with. It should work flawlessly and the oxidation of the Cl to ClO4 is extremely fast by comparison to other acid electrosynths. I like copper because the blue ion serves as an indicator if you have any acidic backflow in your cell as the cathode should not oxidize in this process.

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