Chemical Forums
General Forums => Generic Discussion => Topic started by: samnathan on September 02, 2011, 04:32:33 AM
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Hi, I would like to ask you, if you concider NaClO2 harmless for the human body/cells.
I am asking because my father want to try the "healing" method described by Jim Humble (http://jimhumble.biz/), but I am afraid he can make something bad to his body.
I am not good in chemistry, so, I would like to ask you scientists and enthusiasts, if is NaClO2 safe. Maybe it can damage the cell membrane or something else in human body, I do not know. What do you think?
I am sceptical of Jim Humble MMS (Miracle Mineral Supplement) method, however I would like to hear your opinion if possible.
Thanks in advance for any info/advice/opinion.
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I don't like strange links, so I won't be clicking on your link. I don't really want to hear this guy's spiel, anyway. You can read about the reagent in question on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_chlorite
It isn't exactly a harmless chemical, and because of that, it won't hurt right away, and give you a warning.
You can also read some wikipedia references on the product itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement
Wikipedia has references that trace back to the identity of who has made the statement, some of them are government agencies, and scientists who put their reputations on the line. That makes the opinion "better" than a forum posting or a web page, which contain random testimonials.
Personally 'tho, I wouldn't ingest this chemical, and the logic presented behind the concept doesn't seem right to me -- nothing can cure everything, illnesses have different causes, and need different treatments. Everyone older than 5 years old should understand that, unless they try too hard not to.
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Samnathan,
Sodium Chlorite is quite an unpleasant compound, but from what I gather from your link, in the MMS therapy, it is converted to Chlorine Dioxide before use. This is in itself quite a nasty compound (see http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/CH/chlorine_dioxide.html (http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/CH/chlorine_dioxide.html)) and although rather a good antimicrobial is not (in my opinion) at all approriate for human consumption however dilute.
I am unaware of any clinical trials which show that MMS is effective at combatting the sorts of diseases its maker claims and I would suspect that the risks associated with the common side effects of its use (diarrhoea and vomitting) far outweigh any benefits through placebo effects... This is especially true in the elderly.
I can see why someone with inoperable terminal cancer for example might give it a go, but suspect their time and money would be better spent with family rather than lining the pockets of a charlatan.
Kind Regards
R
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Thanks guys, any other opinions? I mean I would like to hear some opinion on the effect of this chemical solution to the human cells? I mean the digestive epithelium (intestinal villi etc.) or nervous system etc. He states that this solution can exist in the body only for 2-3 hours or so and then "dissapears" - transforms to some other chemical solution/go out of the body.
E.g. in Jim Humble book there is a page where he spray a neck tumor with this solution and the tumor start to "desintegrate" and go to pieces. Could this be the effect of NaClO2?
Because it is used in swimming pool and toilets for disinfection, so, maybe in smaller amount it could possible "disinfect" human body. What do you think?
One more question, have you ever heard about him in the mass media or anywhere else?
Because one thing is very interesting. He is not asking any money for this information and also there is no marketing.
You can create the "drug" yourself. The solution can be purchased in my country for a little money and if you have some friend in waterworks you can have it gratis or for a very few bucks ;).
My concern is if it can create a permanent damage to the human body. If it can cause cancer of digestive system, permanent change of epithelium etc, or lung cancer etc.)
What do you think?
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I think this About says it all
http://tvance.hubpages.com/hub/Jim-Humble-Is-Going-To-Jail (http://tvance.hubpages.com/hub/Jim-Humble-Is-Going-To-Jail)
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213718-Jim-Humble-Nexus-Magazine-and-The-MMS-Mafia (http://www.sott.net/articles/show/213718-Jim-Humble-Nexus-Magazine-and-The-MMS-Mafia)
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My opinion, I would not breathe chlorine dioxide. It's like breathing chlorine!
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Thanks, but is there any scientific study that shows he is wrong?
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I doubt anybody will try to do such a study - it would be like studying if a gun is lethal by finding people that you can shot at, to check how many will survive. There is no doubt substance in question is a poison.
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Thanks, but is there any scientific study that shows he is wrong?
Both the Wikipedia pages I linked to specifically cite recent studies on this substance's toxicity. You can go there, click, download and read them. In my opinion, since they've been published in reputable journals, and I haven't heard of retractions, that means their conclusions are pretty valid, and those conclusions are adequately summarized, with minimal bias, in the Wikipedia articles.
You started this thread stating that you were worried about a relative who wanted to self-medicate with this particular treatment. I warned you that some people are stubborn, and won't listen to carefully thought out explanations. Now you seem to me making as many excuses as you can for this guy's procedure. Maybe you just wanted to soap-box about this guy, or maybe not. But this discussion is beginning to become pointlessly circular.
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Everyone is biased, it is the nature of our experience in the past. But back to my point. Some guys here are stated here that NaClO2 is poison. So is H2O when it reach a certain amount. If the inbalance is very big, the creature/human die.
I am a little bit of disapointed of the reactions on this forum. Do not get me wrong, I appreciate your answers and advice, however to me there are missing some facts.
E.g. the people are acusing Jim Humble from not beiing a doctor and such. This is not enough for me. I would like to see some facts that disprove the chemical reactions which he is talking about and so.
You have also agreed that there is no scientific study that displrove Humble's theory.
But I might be wrong. Please, give me some link to some research study if such study exist.
I am the last one who would agree with Humble, howeever I have no objective evidence he is wrong.
The last question remains, why is he doing it for no profit?
And my last thought in this reaction:
"You use water to get the dirt away from your skin and cavities (mouth etc.) because it binds the dirt and other molecules and microbes and the gravity/or the force of your hand,fingers etc push them away from your skin. What if this "poison" NaClO2 (in small amount) could do something like that in your body. What do you think about it?"
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Try it and report back if you are so convinced.
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I feel like things are standing on the head here now.
Some guy said NaClO2 cures everything, but - apart from his words - we have no proofs that's the case.
Others have proven - using scientific methods, whatever they were in this case - that the same substance is poisonous.
Burden of the proof is on the claimant, especially if he claims things that are in direct contradiction of what we already know. Yet you want us to prove Humble is wrong?
Or you can look at things from different perspective. Even if we don't have DIRECT proof he is wrong, it doesn't make his claim right. That's classic argument from ignorance.
To some extent it makes me even think about Russel's teapot.
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Yes, you are probably right that he is wrong, but I need some proof for my father to give up. And right now I do not have any except that it is a poison.
But to be honest every prescription drug is including aspirin is poison to the organism or to some of the organs if used for a long time or in high amount.
So, my problem is that except the mentioned "poison" aspect I have no proof that it is a lie ;(.
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If I look it from the point that chlorine dioxide make our body naturally to fight virus and infection, it could be that taking it helps the body to fight harder.
What do you think about this?
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What will our body do with ClO2? Probably it will try to reduce it, which oxidizes the body. Will your body fight better oxidized? Then we all could drink KMnO4 solution.
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Any other opinion?
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Do you think I could ask some medical departure for theire opinion? I am unable to find study which disprove Humble theory. PLease, if you know some pages where I can find more info or ask some people let me know. Perhaps some medical forum etc. Thanks in advance.
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I am unable to find study which disprove Humble theory. P
And I am unable to find a study saying that hitting your balls with a hammer does not cure cancer.
"I had prostate cancer, it had been spreading everywhere and doctors said remission was unlikely. I was at the end of my leash so I decided to try the unique solution proposed by 408. Using the provided unique ball hammer from 408distribution.com, I experienced extreme temporary discomfort upon following directions. When I checked with my doctor the following month the cancer was gone. 408 and 408distribution.com have changed my life. Best $149.99 I have ever spent. Luckily for everyone else, since my treatment was completed the price for the unique 408 ball hammer is only $99.99. I hope everyone takes advantage of this miracle cure"
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Is this really true? Please, if you are making a joke do not post this kind of posts, thank you.
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What exactly from chemical point of view is wrong with NaClO2?
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NaClO2 is a strong oxidizer, Cl has got the oxidation state +3. Nobody will breathe a such strong oxidizer, even in small amounts.ClO2 is better at bleaching paper, not curing cancer or so.
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Is this really true? Please, if you are making a joke do not post this kind of posts, thank you.
No, he was showing to you why your question is putting things on the head. I understand your concern about your Dad, but you will not find a research that will debunk every idiotic idea people can come with. Those doing research have much better things to do, than to deal with every crackpot selling snake oil.
And 408 post hit the nail on the head.
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NaClO2 is a strong oxidizer, Cl has got the oxidation state +3. Nobody will breathe a such strong oxidizer, even in small amounts.ClO2 is better at bleaching paper, not curing cancer or so.
I am not sure if you are right. Even aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid) mask can damage your skin if you use it too much or in high amount, in fact it can "bleach" your skin just like ClO2. On the other side if used properly it can help your skin. This is used in cosmetics and medicine a lot, that is a reality not only my thought.
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408: Your sarcasm won't help me. I am looking for some evidence not Picard and Riker photo.
Admin(Borek): Please, remove the picture from ST above, it has nothing to do with my question at all.
Thanks in advance.
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If you read the wikipedia article which contains a multitude of references http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_Mineral_Supplement)
The toxic effects seen in animals are not good. the major bodies responible for medicine/food supplement licensing un the US, UK and Canada have all issued warnings about using it.
It's an industrial strenghth bleach and not meant as a medicine.
Why people choose to believe charlatans who peddle these miracle cures is beyond me.
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I need an unbiased Opinion on the Ingestion of Clo2 and it's Health Effects.
Is there any Dosage that is safe and can be used therapeutically as suggested by Jim Humble?
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Whole MMS thing is a hoax.
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Hello, wurweider:, I hope you don't mind my merging your current question with this much older post on the same topic. I hope the earlier posts address many of your questions. There are at least two: what is the nature of the therapy proposed by Jim Humble called MMS, and why is it that getting "unbiased" opinions is hard for you. I think this earlier thread is a very through treatment of the topic, and the nature of pseudoscience and how scientists try to help.