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Topic: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?  (Read 38787 times)

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Offline KLB

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What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« on: August 01, 2006, 05:31:52 PM »
I've been working on updating my periodic table and I know that naturally occurring plutonium has been found in trace amounts in uranium ore, however, I can not find any information as to what nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature.

Could someone please point me to a source that refers to what nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?  I realize that all "commercially" used plutonium is produced is "artificial" but I'm very interested to know what has also been found in nature.

Offline wereworm73

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Offline KLB

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2006, 11:11:59 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium#Occurrence
I need non-Wikipedia sources I do not trust Wikipedia for such details.  I'm looking for Primary or secondary sources, I'd prefer books or scientific papers. On line resources only work when they are highly trustworthy sources (e.g. International Union of Pure and Applied Chemists (IUPAC)).

Almost all of Wikipedia's information on such subjects is based on tertiary or quaternary sources.  Ironically enough much of Wikipedia's periodic table information actually used my site as their primary source (along with Webelements).

Because of the lack of strict editorial control and the secondary vs tertiary source issue, I don't even allow my writers to use Wikipedia as a reference source for articles they write.

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2006, 11:37:57 PM »
KLB -
I am confused, are you saying ALL of the external links at the bottom of the wikipedia item are unreliable.
I assumed you looked and did not reject the link just based on the location.
I know that several items on wikipedia are questionable based on personal experimental knowledge, but I find that it can be a good pointer to resources, as long as you can separate the wheat from the chafe.


Offline KLB

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2006, 11:56:21 PM »
KLB -
I am confused, are you saying ALL of the external links at the bottom of the wikipedia item are unreliable.
I assumed you looked and did not reject the link just based on the location.
I know that several items on wikipedia are questionable based on personal experimental knowledge, but I find that it can be a good pointer to resources, as long as you can separate the wheat from the chafe.



No the links are fine, I'm refering to the information on the page itself.  The problem is none of those links addressed what I'm looking for.  Normally everyone just states that plutonium is a synthetic element, however, in very rare and unusually circumstances it has been found in naturally occuring uranium ores.  I'm trying to find out, which nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature.  I've found a few sources now (including one book) that refer to plutonium having been found in nature, however, none of the sources stated which nuclides had been found.  According to a DOE fact sheet (http://consolidationeis.doe.gov/PDFs/PlutoniumANLFactSheetOct2001.pdf) the naturally occuring plutonium was produced about 1.9 billion years ago in Gabon Africa.

I'd like to find out more about this as it is an interesting aspect of plutonium that does not get discussed much.  I'm trying to dig my way to a source that states, which nuclides were discovered in nature and then allows me to back track to the original research paper that reported the discovery.

Offline Mitch

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2006, 12:08:07 AM »
Look up papers by Darleane Hoffman, she is the one that discovered naturally occuring plutonium.
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Offline KLB

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2006, 12:20:21 AM »
Look up papers by Darleane Hoffman, she is the one that discovered naturally occuring plutonium.
Thanks now that is a string I can really pull on.  ;D

Oh one quick find was: http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/hoffman-priestley.html

Based on that page it looks like one of the nuclides I'm looking for is Pu-244.

I think I can now track down the rest of what I need.

Maybe I'll see if I can find her email address and ask her about it. That would be pretty cool.

Thanks,
Ken

Offline Mitch

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2006, 01:11:47 PM »
There is a picture of her here http://blog.chemicalforums.com ;)
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Offline KLB

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2006, 01:32:49 PM »
You see this could be a great trick question on a chemistry or physics test. ;D  Everyone seems to just accept that plutonium is a "synthetic" element and yes while the intial plutonium discovered was synthetic, it was discovered naturally occuring some thirty years later.  The problem is that most reference sources stop with the 1940 discovery and label plutonium as a synthetic element when in fact it does occur in nature on Earth.

Oh this would be such an evil test question.

Oh here is what I discovered, Dr. Hoffman discovered traces of naturally occuring primordial plutonium-244 in Precambrian bastnasite.

Here are two key references to this I found:
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/hoffman-priestley.html
http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/doe/lanl/pubs/00285788.pdf

Now if I could just find the original paper.

Offline Mitch

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Offline KLB

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2006, 02:21:37 PM »
Ouch! It costs $30 to gain access to that ONE article.  :'(

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2006, 07:51:37 PM »
Ouch! It costs $30 to gain access to that ONE article.  :'(

That is just so preposterous.

Personally, I find that kind of thing to be the antithesis of the free and open exchange of information that I thought was a fundamental part of science.

Offline KLB

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2006, 08:07:04 PM »
That is just so preposterous.

Personally, I find that kind of thing to be the antithesis of the free and open exchange of information that I thought was a fundamental part of science.

Well I do understand people needing to make a living, but this is why I like banner advertising. It solves the need to generate an income while making information freely available.

Offline billnotgatez

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2006, 05:34:28 AM »
Mitch -
Did you spend $30 to look at this?

Offline xiankai

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Re: What nuclides of plutonium have been found in nature?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2006, 07:18:26 AM »
maybe his institution subscribes to it, lucky guy :P
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