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Topic: principle of emerging properties: water, hydrogen & oxygen  (Read 29027 times)

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Offline north

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principle of emerging properties: water, hydrogen & oxygen
« on: April 24, 2006, 04:13:01 PM »
   let me be clear i know that bond wise "water" is H2O. and that it takes H2O to "produce" water.

   but what i'm trying to get at is this, if electrons and protons don't change their physical states. then what is water, really?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2006, 02:40:38 AM by geodome »

Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2006, 07:05:26 PM »
what talking you?

  aside from your humor ;D

    so do electrons and protons change, physically? if not, what does the formation of water tell us?

   picture both atoms, H2O, they come together, they produce a drop of water. now we know that at -256cel. hydrogen is liquid, at -236cel. oxygen is liquid. why then at room temp. why does the combination of the two produce a liquid?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2006, 07:28:18 PM by north »

Offline Borek

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2006, 07:33:23 PM »
Properties of compound are completely different then properties of atoms it is built off.

2+3=5, but 5 is not similar to 2 nor 3.
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Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2006, 07:51:49 PM »
Properties of compound are completely different then properties of atoms it is built off.

2+3=5, but 5 is not similar to 2 nor 3.

    that is my point. the resultant form is different from its consituents, why??

     what on earth is actually happening?

   

   

Offline Yggdrasil

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2006, 12:11:18 AM »
In science there is a priciple known as the principle of emerging properties.  This principle holds that upon increasing the level of complexity of an objects, the whole gains new properties which is not present in the sum of its parts.

For example, in math, consider systems of differential equations.  A one dimensional system exhibits very simple behavior with trajectories either extending to infinity or approaching a fixed value.  Two dimensional systems can exhibit oscillations and contain periodic orbits, which are impossible in a one dimensional system.  Three dimensional systemc can exhibit chaotic behavior which does not occur in two dimensional systems.

Similarly in chemistry, molecules have properties which are different from the atoms which compose the molecules.  For example, whereas an atom cannot have a permanent dipole, a molecule can posses a permanent dipole.  This allows a wider variety of interactions between molecules than between atoms.  This helps account for why hydrogen and oxygen are gaseous at room temperature and why water is liquid at room temperature; water's permanent dipole allows strong intermolecular interactions than hydrogen or oxygen.   Other emergent properties help make water significantly different than its component atoms.

Furthermore, you are incorrect when you say that electrons and protons don't change their physical states.  The electrons in water are in different quantum states than in oxygen or hydrogen atoms.  Instead of filling atomic orbitals, they are now contained in molecular orbitals of different energies and symmetries.  The difference is easy to see:

atomic orbitals of hydrogen
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/1s/index.html

atomic orbitals of oxygen
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/1s/index.html
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/2s/index.html
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/2p/index.html

molecular orbitals of water:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/h2oorb.html

Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2006, 06:24:09 PM »
In science there is a priciple known as the principle of emerging properties.  This principle holds that upon increasing the level of complexity of an objects, the whole gains new properties which is not present in the sum of its parts.

For example, in math, consider systems of differential equations.  A one dimensional system exhibits very simple behavior with trajectories either extending to infinity or approaching a fixed value.  Two dimensional systems can exhibit oscillations and contain periodic orbits, which are impossible in a one dimensional system.  Three dimensional systemc can exhibit chaotic behavior which does not occur in two dimensional systems.

Similarly in chemistry, molecules have properties which are different from the atoms which compose the molecules.  For example, whereas an atom cannot have a permanent dipole, a molecule can posses a permanent dipole.  This allows a wider variety of interactions between molecules than between atoms.  This helps account for why hydrogen and oxygen are gaseous at room temperature and why water is liquid at room temperature; water's permanent dipole allows strong intermolecular interactions than hydrogen or oxygen.   Other emergent properties help make water significantly different than its component atoms.

   what other emergent properties? curious.

   

Quote
Furthermore, you are incorrect when you say that electrons and protons don't change their physical states.  The electrons in water are in different quantum states than in oxygen or hydrogen atoms.  Instead of filling atomic orbitals, they are now contained in molecular orbitals of different energies and symmetries.  The difference is easy to see:

atomic orbitals of hydrogen
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/1s/index.html

atomic orbitals of oxygen
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/1s/index.html
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/2s/index.html
http://winter.group.shef.ac.uk/orbitron/AOs/2p/index.html

molecular orbitals of water:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/h2oorb.html

what though does this tell us about water itself? in and of itself. other than it is because of a particlar molecular structure.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 04:03:46 AM by Borek »

Offline Yggdrasil

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2006, 10:54:21 PM »
what other emergent properties? curious.

Another emergent propety is a reduction in symmetry.  All atoms are roughly spherical and thus have point group Ih.  Few molecules, however, are spherically symmetric and thus have different point groups (e.g. water has point group C2v).  The point group symmetry affects the organization of the molecular orbitals.

Quote
what though does this tell us about water itself? in and of itself. other than it is because of a particlar molecular structure.

From a chemist's point of view, the electronic strucutre of a substance will completely determine its properties and reactivities.  If you're looking for a more philosophical answer to what is water, I can't provide one.  I prefer physical explanations over metaphysical ones.

Offline Borek

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2006, 04:02:47 AM »
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LorD of DirT

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2006, 03:31:33 PM »
From what I've learned this year in principles of chemistry, is that the sum of electronegativity of both hydrogen atoms is less than the electronegativity of the Oxygen atom in a water molecule.  This creates a dipole.  So the side of the H2O molecule that the Oxygen resides on, attracts the electrons from the Hydrogen atoms creating a pole with a negative charge.  On the side with the two hydrogens a pole with a positive charge.  This polarity attracts other water molecules.  The negatively charged Oxygen poles are attracted to the positively charged hydrogen molecules.  This kind of bonding is called hydrogen bonding and can be very strong if these bonds are in abundance, which results in the high vaporization temperature of water.

I hope this helps you
LorD of DirT
« Last Edit: May 06, 2006, 03:43:12 PM by LorD of DirT »

Offline xiankai

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2006, 08:09:21 PM »
u dont need the sum of electronegativity of both hydrogen atoms; each hydrogen atom acts as a seperate atom.
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LorD of DirT

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2006, 09:12:45 PM »
u dont need the sum of electronegativity of both hydrogen atoms; each hydrogen atom acts as a seperate atom.

Ok, that would make sense because when I add up the electronegativity values for both Hydrogen's it equals 4.40 Pauling Units.  This would cause the Hydrogen pole to be the negative pole, but I know thats not true.

Thanks for the correction xiankai.

Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2006, 10:53:48 AM »
what other emergent properties? curious.

Another emergent propety is a reduction in symmetry.  All atoms are roughly spherical and thus have point group Ih.  Few molecules, however, are spherically symmetric and thus have different point groups (e.g. water has point group C2v).  The point group symmetry affects the organization of the molecular orbitals.

Quote
what though does this tell us about water itself? in and of itself. other than it is because of a particlar molecular structure.

From a chemist's point of view, the electronic strucutre of a substance will completely determine its properties and reactivities.  If you're looking for a more philosophical answer to what is water, I can't provide one.  I prefer physical explanations over metaphysical ones.


   i'm not looking for "metaphysical explainations" either, for i perfer a scientific explanation myself.

   let me put it this way, if the atoms themselves don't change, H2O, then what does? that allows the existence of the liquid we call "water" too exist? all the bonding and electonics cause a liquid too manifest. does this not suggest that the bonding and electronics of H2O act as a key to release an energy source that is within the space between the electrons and protons? and that this source can produce from gas, water and solids(metals for example).

   your take on my comments.

Offline Borek

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2006, 11:05:36 AM »
let me put it this way, if the atoms themselves don't change, H2O, then what does?

What do you mean by "atoms don't change"?

Separate hydrogen atom have one electron on well defined orbitals. In water particle hydrogen atom doesn't have its "own" electrons - they are on molecular orbitals, so they belong to the whole particle. In case of oxygen atom some of its electrons are left on almost not changed atomic orbitals, but some of those most external (from so called valence shell) are on the molecular orbitals. Thus you can hardly say "this is hydrogen atom", at best you may say "here is hydrogen atom nucleus", as these are really not changed in the particles (well, almost).
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Offline north

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2006, 07:13:39 PM »
let me put it this way, if the atoms themselves don't change, H2O, then what does?

What do you mean by "atoms don't change"?

Separate hydrogen atom have one electron on well defined orbitals. In water particle hydrogen atom doesn't have its "own" electrons - they are on molecular orbitals, so they belong to the whole particle. In case of oxygen atom some of its electrons are left on almost not changed atomic orbitals, but some of those most external (from so called valence shell) are on the molecular orbitals. Thus you can hardly say "this is hydrogen atom", at best you may say "here is hydrogen atom nucleus", as these are really not changed in the particles (well, almost).


    okay lets go back a-bit. we know that both hydogen and oxygen are themselves, on there own, capable of producing liquids, at a low enough temp.( i think hydrogen is -256 cel. and oxygen is -236cel.).

   how do we explain this state of liquidity, at very low temps., for both? 

Offline Borek

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Re: what is water the manifestation of?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2006, 08:11:24 PM »
Intermolecular forces being strong enough to keep them together.

Same happens in water - but here intermolecular forces are much stronger, thus water is a liquid in much higher temp. And strength of these intermolecular forces in water is much higher thanks to the presence of molecular orbitals.
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